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Post by 71stretch on Mar 14, 2014 11:30:56 GMT -5
Do any of you know if any ALJ was successful in the past in appealing a disqualifying score on the written demonstration test? Just wonder if it is worth the trouble to appeal. Thanks and congratulations to everyone who made the cut! You can't win if you don't play. As I see it, you have nothing to lose by appealing. We didn't have this scoring method (minimum qualifying scores on WD or SI), before, so there's no past history to look at.
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 14, 2014 11:50:14 GMT -5
I'm out, but due to the SI (which I could've guessed because I ran out of time). Good luck, everyone. Too bad. I think they should give you some idea of where you stand on the time during the interview (or sooner than the last few minutes). There was no visible clock in the room.
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Post by lovinlife on Mar 14, 2014 11:54:51 GMT -5
I too have not received an email with instructions on how to appeal.
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 14, 2014 11:57:34 GMT -5
I too have not received an email with instructions on how to appeal. I don't think anyone has yet. EVERYONE will get one, including those who got scores.
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Post by papresqr on Mar 14, 2014 12:16:27 GMT -5
I'm out, too. I kind of expected I wouldn't pass the SI based on my legal background. However, I also failed the WD, which I felt very confident about. I've spent the past 15 years writing orders, opinions, and decisions, and the feedback has always been excellent. If it were only the WD, I'd probably appeal, but since I fully accept not passing the SI, it hardly seems worth it. Sure would like to know what I did wrong, or didn't do right, though. As a 10 point vet, I can reapply at any time and had already resigned myself to probably having to do so...armed with a better understanding of what to expect/prepare for on the SI. But now I'm questioning the wisdom of that if my confidence in my WD was so misplaced.
Still, I'm happy for those of you who made it onto the register. Congratulations on a job well done. Hope to hear good news from many of you soon.
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Post by sealaw90 on Mar 14, 2014 12:22:03 GMT -5
I am so sorry to hear that papresqr, that's a double whammy. If you're a 15 year attorney, you've got plenty of time to consider your options, and you're right, as a 10 point vet, take the test when YOU want to, not when OPM decides to open the application window.
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Post by Propmaster on Mar 14, 2014 12:24:06 GMT -5
I'm out, too. I kind of expected I wouldn't pass the SI based on my legal background. However, I also failed the WD, which I felt very confident about. I've spent the past 15 years writing orders, opinions, and decisions, and the feedback has always been excellent. If it were only the WD, I'd probably appeal, but since I fully accept not passing the SI, it hardly seems worth it. Sure would like to know what I did wrong, or didn't do right, though. As a 10 point vet, I can reapply at any time and had already resigned myself to probably having to do so...armed with a better understanding of what to expect/prepare for on the SI. But now I'm questioning the wisdom of that if my confidence in my WD was so misplaced. Still, I'm happy for those of you who made it onto the register. Congratulations on a job well done. Hope to hear good news from many of you soon. Never let a score from OPM color your confidence or opinion of yourself. The fickle nature of the process, both procedurally and in the variety of people who might look at and score a particular thing, make judging yourself based on these scores absolutely incorrect. If you think you did well, you probably did well. Maybe your grader had a hard day and felt crotchety. Maybe your grader had read 2 stellar examples right before yours. Maybe your grader was tired and wrote the wrong numbers. Maybe OPM didn't even have your scores right. PLEASE do not let the ratings from OPM, as much as they seem to have import in this process, count in your self-image to the degree that a particular opinion from a respected colleague or mentor would! This has nothing to do with you, and a lot to do with a process. Apply again, appeal (or not, as you wish); continue to believe in yourself.
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Post by BagLady on Mar 14, 2014 12:27:20 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more, Prop. And if appealing is a relatively easy task, why not take the opportunity to get a second look? Maybe there were mistakes made; you certainly won't know if you walk away now.
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Post by hopefalj on Mar 14, 2014 12:30:27 GMT -5
I'm out, too. I kind of expected I wouldn't pass the SI based on my legal background. However, I also failed the WD, which I felt very confident about. I've spent the past 15 years writing orders, opinions, and decisions, and the feedback has always been excellent. If it were only the WD, I'd probably appeal, but since I fully accept not passing the SI, it hardly seems worth it. Sure would like to know what I did wrong, or didn't do right, though. As a 10 point vet, I can reapply at any time and had already resigned myself to probably having to do so...armed with a better understanding of what to expect/prepare for on the SI. But now I'm questioning the wisdom of that if my confidence in my WD was so misplaced. Still, I'm happy for those of you who made it onto the register. Congratulations on a job well done. Hope to hear good news from many of you soon. Don't doubt yourself based on a limited number of unknown reviewers looking at a single sample of your work. Unless the same people reviewed everyone's WD (highly unlikely) and the same folks did everyone's SI (impossible as we all know), it's far more likely that another explanation exists. After going through the process, I can confidently say a fair amount of luck is involved in making it through. One grader's "A" response may be another's "D." Do not let this process create any doubt in your abilities. Go for it again.
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Post by moopigsdad on Mar 14, 2014 12:31:23 GMT -5
I'm out, but due to the SI (which I could've guessed because I ran out of time). Good luck, everyone. Too bad. I think they should give you some idea of where you stand on the time during the interview (or sooner than the last few minutes). There was no visible clock in the room. This is why after all these years I still use a wristhingych wherever I go. Old-fashioned, but still effective.
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Post by papresqr on Mar 14, 2014 12:46:37 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more, Prop. And if appealing is a relatively easy task, why not take the opportunity to get a second look? Maybe there were mistakes made; you certainly won't know if you walk away now. Thanks to you and to propmaster. I really do still have confidence in my writing ability. It's just frustrating to know you write well and yet failed, without any indication why. Unless I could find out more details by appealing, it wouldn't be worth the time since I believe the SI results were correct and the end result wouldn't change. Does anyone know whether you get any actual answers on appeal, or is it just a yea or nay?
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 14, 2014 12:54:05 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more, Prop. And if appealing is a relatively easy task, why not take the opportunity to get a second look? Maybe there were mistakes made; you certainly won't know if you walk away now. Thanks to you and to propmaster. I really do still have confidence in my writing ability. It's just frustrating to know you write well and yet failed, without any indication why. Unless I could find out more details by appealing, it wouldn't be worth the time since I believe the SI results were correct and the end result wouldn't change. Does anyone know whether you get any actual answers on appeal, or is it just a yea or nay? You've invested a year in this process already. What amount of time to write an appeal letter makes it not worth pursuing? Admittedly, we don't know how the WD is scored, and you won't know exactly why your score was too low, but I'd wait for the instructions and see what they say, and do the appeal. We are in uncharted waters here.... there's never been a minimum score on those two elements in order to make the register before.
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Post by lovinlife on Mar 14, 2014 12:55:35 GMT -5
Papresqr - did you get separate scores for the WD and SI? I didn't get a score. My notice said:
Rating Code: Rating Message:
IMWD Your Written Demonstration submission did not meet the required minimum score. Accordingly, your
application will no longer be considered for the current Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) examination. . . .
Not sure what IMWD means.
If you got a score, you might still be in the running.
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Post by Gaidin on Mar 14, 2014 13:01:12 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more, Prop. And if appealing is a relatively easy task, why not take the opportunity to get a second look? Maybe there were mistakes made; you certainly won't know if you walk away now. Thanks to you and to propmaster. I really do still have confidence in my writing ability. It's just frustrating to know you write well and yet failed, without any indication why. Unless I could find out more details by appealing, it wouldn't be worth the time since I believe the SI results were correct and the end result wouldn't change. Does anyone know whether you get any actual answers on appeal, or is it just a yea or nay? I don't know. If I were in papresqr's shoes I might not appeal. I say that not because I believe appeals are fruitless but because they can take the test in the next quarter if they choose whereas the appeals last time could take months. With the possibility that multiple certs could be pulled this calender year I am not sure I would wait for an appeal to run its course especially if it is unlikely to yield more than a cursory response about why the test grade was whatever it was. Also it seems to me that anyone who went through the process a 2nd time would score better. I know this process is not cheap but if you feel like you can get the SI issues fixed on a second run.....
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Post by sealaw90 on Mar 14, 2014 13:02:43 GMT -5
I'm out, but due to the SI (which I could've guessed because I ran out of time). Good luck, everyone. Too bad. I think they should give you some idea of where you stand on the time during the interview (or sooner than the last few minutes). There was no visible clock in the room. It's funny you said this because I ran out of time during the SI. My interviewers seemed to be so engrossed that they forgot to watch the clock, which was facing them but I couldn't see. Then all of a sudden, they told me I had 4 minutes left and I was freaked out. I got the impression they were apologetic, regardless, I have been sweating bullets about whether that would cause me to fail. Thankfully it didn't, but my score would be higher had I been allowed to answer all the questions. - you too SBB - don't give up, now you know what you need to do and you WILL get a higher score next time and be on the register.
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Post by Ace Midnight on Mar 14, 2014 13:09:28 GMT -5
I don't know. If I were in papresqr's shoes I might not appeal. I say that not because I believe appeals are fruitless but because they can take the test in the next quarter if they choose whereas the appeals last time could take months. With the possibility that multiple certs could be pulled this calender year I am not sure I would wait for an appeal to run its course especially if it is unlikely to yield more than a cursory response about why the test grade was whatever it was. Also it seems to me that anyone who went through the process a 2nd time would score better. I know this process is not cheap but if you feel like you can get the SI issues fixed on a second run..... I agree with this - as a 10-point vet myself, had I failed either the WD or SI (or both), or simply scored a 60 or 61 - I would be on the email this week to get my application in this quarter to test next quarter (I believe that's how the cutoff works) - and just do it again. Can't do worse - and people often do better the second time around. Seems like more upside, whereas a "successful" appeal might reverse a score on one, but not both of the dropped DC sections. A more "proactive" to use a buzzword course is to re-test with the freedom of knowing that you cannot do worse. Far more dicey than appealing, say, a numerical score in the low 60s (and people may get hired with scores in this range as it is) - and then having the appeal lower your score to "off the register" - you'd have to have a long talk with a gambling counselor and the man in the mirror after something like that.
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Post by papresqr on Mar 14, 2014 13:19:14 GMT -5
Papresqr - did you get separate scores for the WD and SI? I didn't get a score. My notice said: Rating Code: Rating Message: IMWD Your Written Demonstration submission did not meet the required minimum score. Accordingly, your application will no longer be considered for the current Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) examination. . . . Not sure what IMWD means. If you got a score, you might still be in the running. lovinlife - No, I didn't get any scores. I got what you did, but for both the WD and the SI. observer - Yes, I have invested a year and $1000 to go to Washington. But I said after the SI that I would not pass unless they had an extremely low passing threshold. Obviously, they do not. I'm certain the SI results are accurate, so appealing the WD would not change the result. The only benefit would be if, by appealing, I can find out the reason I did not pass the WD. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter if there was some huge error and my WD was actually the greatest ever seen. I still wouldn't make the register without passing the SI.
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Post by papresqr on Mar 14, 2014 13:27:53 GMT -5
I don't know. If I were in papresqr's shoes I might not appeal. I say that not because I believe appeals are fruitless but because they can take the test in the next quarter if they choose whereas the appeals last time could take months. With the possibility that multiple certs could be pulled this calender year I am not sure I would wait for an appeal to run its course especially if it is unlikely to yield more than a cursory response about why the test grade was whatever it was. Also it seems to me that anyone who went through the process a 2nd time would score better. I know this process is not cheap but if you feel like you can get the SI issues fixed on a second run..... I agree with this - as a 10-point vet myself, had I failed either the WD or SI (or both), or simply scored a 60 or 61 - I would be on the email this week to get my application in this quarter to test next quarter (I believe that's how the cutoff works) - and just do it again. Can't do worse - and people often do better the second time around. Seems like more upside, whereas a "successful" appeal might reverse a score on one, but not both of the dropped DC sections. A more "proactive" to use a buzzword course is to re-test with the freedom of knowing that you cannot do worse. Far more dicey than appealing, say, a numerical score in the low 60s (and people may get hired with scores in this range as it is) - and then having the appeal lower you score to "off the register" - you'd have to have a long talk with a gambling counseler and the man in the mirror after something like that. Exactly! If I had no other option than appealing, I would absolutely do so even if the chance of success was very small. But with a miniscule chance of success and that other option, I think I'd take door 2.
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 14, 2014 13:29:30 GMT -5
Papresqr - did you get separate scores for the WD and SI? I didn't get a score. My notice said: Rating Code: Rating Message: IMWD Your Written Demonstration submission did not meet the required minimum score. Accordingly, your application will no longer be considered for the current Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) examination. . . . Not sure what IMWD means. If you got a score, you might still be in the running. lovinlife - No, I didn't get any scores. I got what you did, but for both the WD and the SI. observer - Yes, I have invested a year and $1000 to go to Washington. But I said after the SI that I would not pass unless they had an extremely low passing threshold. Obviously, they do not. I'm certain the SI results are accurate, so appealing the WD would not change the result. The only benefit would be if, by appealing, I can find out the reason I did not pass the WD. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter if there was some huge error and my WD was actually the greatest ever seen. I still wouldn't make the register without passing the SI. Sorry, I missed the fact that they told you your scores on both were too low. That makes it more difficult. And, as I've said elswhere, I don't know how the appeals based on the SI will even be handled, since unlike the WD, the "work product" of the candidate is not available to whoever is considering the appeal. Since you are a 10 point vet, (which I also didn't pick up on before) I'd get that new application started ASAP, and go from there.
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harry
Full Member
Posts: 63
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Post by harry on Mar 14, 2014 13:41:34 GMT -5
The clock in my room was prominently displayed, facing all of us with the time counting down. This does not seem fair.
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