GAL Hypotheticals

[Gaidin]

I need some help understanding how some of these will play out within the rule of 3. Sorry for the hypos but I think I understand how this works and then I try to figure out how it will apply and I get lost.

Office 1 has 2 vacancies = 1a and 1b

Office 2 has 1 vacancy = 2

Office 3 has 1 vacancy = 3

ALJ applicant U has a NOR of 90 = U

ALJ applicant V has a NOR of 85 = V

ALJ applicant W has a NOR of 80 = W

ALJ applicant X has a NOR of 75 and is a 10 point veteran = X

ALJ applicant Y has a NOR of 70 = Y

ALJ applicant Z has a NOR of 60 = Z


Question 1: A Cert is pulled just for Office 1. All applicants have Office 1 on their GAL. Do all applicants get interviewed?

Question 2: A Cert is pulled just for Office 2. All applicants have Office 2 on their GAL.  Which applicants get interviewed?

Question 3: A Cert is pulled just for Offices 2 & 3. All applicants have both offices on their GAL. Which applicants get interviewed?

Question 4: A Cert is pulled just for Offices 2 & 3. U, W, X, & Y have 2 on their GAL. V, Y, & Z have 3 on their GAL. Which applicants get interviewed?

[71stretch]

That is too hypothetical as it just doesn't happen one office at a time in real life, so I don't think these hypotheticals are particularly valid or will help you figure out how it all works. But, if there was only one vacancy on a cert, there would not be six people on the list. There might be four, the three highest scores plus ties. As to the other two hypotheticals, if those are the only six people on the list, they will all get interviewed. But those hypotheticals are so far from reality that they will not help you understand it. If you end up on the cert, just take the opportunity and run with it. If they like you after the interview, they will work the system, and how the rule of three is applied, to get to you.

It may take more than one cert to get there, but they will.

[gary]

I'm afraid I swore off logic problems after the LBMT.

[privateatty]

The ulimate hiring list for SSA/ODAR/OCALJ known here also as "Puzzle Palace" will probably have the cities to be hired to on the left column (and if there is another vacancy they may repeat it more than once like Seven Fields, PA in the past) and then the three applicants in three boxes across whose GAL matches the city. Obviously they have to consider by score so that's how they work the list. If you have a high score and they don't want you or are in the way of a favorite, you will be considered three times and then you will be toast. As you can imagine, in order to get this done it took a good programer.

[hopefalj]

SSA has placed a spell on the process straight out of Hogwarts... the more you try to figure out, the more confusing and complex it becomes. The only thing to know is that there will be a cert with roughly 3x the number of openings; the cert will contain locations that may or may not actually get new hires; and if you do well enough and they want you bad enough, they'll figure out some sort of logic puzzle to get you into one of your GAL locations.

[71stretch]

Mar 14, 2014 15:21:07 GMT -5 hopefalj said:

SSA has placed a spell on the process straight out of Hogwarts... the more you try to figure out, the more confusing and complex it becomes. The only thing to know is that there will be a cert with roughly 3x the number of openings; the cert will contain locations that may or may not actually get new hires; and if you do well enough and they want you bad enough, they'll figure out some sort of logic puzzle to get you into one of your GAL locations.

Sums it up nicely.

[dpageks]

Mar 14, 2014 15:21:07 GMT -5 hopefalj said:

SSA has placed a spell on the process straight out of Hogwarts... the more you try to figure out, the more confusing and complex it becomes. The only thing to know is that there will be a cert with roughly 3x the number of openings; the cert will contain locations that may or may not actually get new hires; and if you do well enough and they want you bad enough, they'll figure out some sort of logic puzzle to get you into one of your GAL locations.

This gives me hope, since none of the GALs I chose have openings.  With a little luck, maybe someone will take a liking to me and figure out some way to offer me a job in a location with an opening.  Hey, I can dream . . .

[westernalj]

Just be aware that they have to be hiring in a city on your GAL for that to happen. You can't make a cert otherwise.

[71stretch]

Mar 15, 2014 18:25:40 GMT -5 dpageks said:

Mar 14, 2014 15:21:07 GMT -5 hopefalj said:

SSA has placed a spell on the process straight out of Hogwarts... the more you try to figure out, the more confusing and complex it becomes. The only thing to know is that there will be a cert with roughly 3x the number of openings; the cert will contain locations that may or may not actually get new hires; and if you do well enough and they want you bad enough, they'll figure out some sort of logic puzzle to get you into one of your GAL locations.

This gives me hope, since none of the GALs I chose have openings.  With a little luck, maybe someone will take a liking to me and figure out some way to offer me a job in a location with an opening.  Hey, I can dream . . .

As the above post says, you won't even be on a cert unless a city on your GAL is covered by that cert-- and if your four cities usually have their openings filled by transfer and don't show up on the cert, you will be out of luck. You don't get interviewed unless you make a cert.

[Deleted]

I don't think many Attorneys read the job opening in "detail" with the importance of a wide open GAL in mind. It's not a slam on anybody, but this board would of been great information while applying for the gig. I read the job opening and knew the more cities that I listed and a decent score, the better chance for the interview if I got to the register. I really don't care where I live, as long as it isn't Africa, Middle East or the Ukraine (3 places I served while in the Army).

IMHO, I also don't believe the Vets will be "3 struck" as much as is talked about on this board. It seems like every other ALJ that I have met or posts on this board is a Vet. In my city, 6 of the 10 current ALJs are vets or combat vets.

[witty]

Mar 14, 2014 15:21:07 GMT -5 hopefalj said:

SSA has placed a spell on the process straight out of Hogwarts... the more you try to figure out, the more confusing and complex it becomes. The only thing to know is that there will be a cert with roughly 3x the number of openings; the cert will contain locations that may or may not actually get new hires; and if you do well enough and they want you bad enough, they'll figure out some sort of logic puzzle to get you into one of your GAL locations.

I keep seeing comments that ODAR will try to get you if it wants you, but I have not seen this concept explained. Enlighten me.

Is it possible for a prospective ALJ to know that he is wanted "bad enough"?  How can one know?  What are the signs that a prospective ALJ should be looking for to let him know he is wanted?  Is ODAR's want based upon an inference from the score the prospective ALJ is assigned in the structured interview? 

Thanks to all for the valuable information posted on this board.

[moopigsdad]

Mar 16, 2014 1:31:51 GMT -5 @tigerlaw said:

I don't think many Attorneys read the job opening in "detail" with the importance of a wide open GAL in mind. It's not a slam on anybody, but this board would of been great information while applying for the gig. I read the job opening and knew the more cities that I listed and a decent score, the better chance for the interview if I got to the register. I really don't care where I live, as long as it isn't Africa, Middle East or the Ukraine (3 places I served while in the Army).

IMHO, I also don't believe the Vets will be "3 struck" as much as is talked about on this board. It seems like every other ALJ that I have met or posts on this board is a Vet. In my city, 6 of the 10 current ALJs are vets or combat vets.

If you are a vet with no SSA experience or knowledge and not liked in the SSA interview, you are likely to be "three struck" and put out of the game.

[moopigsdad]

Apr 3, 2014 3:30:20 GMT -5 witty said:

Mar 14, 2014 15:21:07 GMT -5 hopefalj said:

SSA has placed a spell on the process straight out of Hogwarts... the more you try to figure out, the more confusing and complex it becomes. The only thing to know is that there will be a cert with roughly 3x the number of openings; the cert will contain locations that may or may not actually get new hires; and if you do well enough and they want you bad enough, they'll figure out some sort of logic puzzle to get you into one of your GAL locations.

I keep seeing comments that ODAR will try to get you if it wants you, but I have not seen this concept explained. Enlighten me.

Is it possible for a prospective ALJ to know that he is wanted "bad enough"?  How can one know?  What are the signs that a prospective ALJ should be looking for to let him know he is wanted?  Is ODAR's want based upon an inference from the score the prospective ALJ is assigned in the structured interview? 

Thanks to all for the valuable information posted on this board.

There is no likely way for you to know until you are hired. Most people come out of the SSA interview not knowing whether they did well or not and the interviewers give you little indication one way or another. The only reason people on this Board say if they want you bad enough they will get to you is based upon past experience. Some NORs in the 40's and 50's have received offers as ALJs, while others with much higher scores have not. I hope this explanation helps you some.

[71stretch]

Apr 3, 2014 3:30:20 GMT -5 witty said:

Mar 14, 2014 15:21:07 GMT -5 hopefalj said:

SSA has placed a spell on the process straight out of Hogwarts... the more you try to figure out, the more confusing and complex it becomes. The only thing to know is that there will be a cert with roughly 3x the number of openings; the cert will contain locations that may or may not actually get new hires; and if you do well enough and they want you bad enough, they'll figure out some sort of logic puzzle to get you into one of your GAL locations.

I keep seeing comments that ODAR will try to get you if it wants you, but I have not seen this concept explained. Enlighten me.

Is it possible for a prospective ALJ to know that he is wanted "bad enough"?  How can one know?  What are the signs that a prospective ALJ should be looking for to let him know he is wanted?  Is ODAR's want based upon an inference from the score the prospective ALJ is assigned in the structured interview? 

Thanks to all for the valuable information posted on this board.

Someone here (apologies as I am not sure who) actually asked the interviewers, at the end of the SSA interview (the structured interview is NOT, IMO, a factor at this point) whether he was on the favorable side of the ledger (my phrase, not his) and they told him he was. I suppose that would not go so far as to give you an answer as to whether you were "wanted", but it would tell you if you were not, if the answer was in the negative.

The earlier posts in this thread were before the "news" that the certs may be set up differently this time. We don't know yet what exactly that means. But, in the past, ODAR could work their selection process, within the rules, to reach lower scoring people they preferred over those with higher scores. The really low scorers (40's, 50's) aren't reached until later certs off the register, when it gets "picked over"...then you will see very low scores picked over higher ones (many of whom have been three struck already-- those people, since early 2012, weren't even on the certs from the old register.)

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2014 5:07:41 GMT -5 moopigsdad said:

Mar 16, 2014 1:31:51 GMT -5 @tigerlaw said:

I don't think many Attorneys read the job opening in "detail" with the importance of a wide open GAL in mind. It's not a slam on anybody, but this board would of been great information while applying for the gig. I read the job opening and knew the more cities that I listed and a decent score, the better chance for the interview if I got to the register. I really don't care where I live, as long as it isn't Africa, Middle East or the Ukraine (3 places I served while in the Army).

IMHO, I also don't believe the Vets will be "3 struck" as much as is talked about on this board. It seems like every other ALJ that I have met or posts on this board is a Vet. In my city, 6 of the 10 current ALJs are vets or combat vets.

If you are a vet with no SSA experience or knowledge and not liked in the SSA interview, you are likely to be "three struck" and put out of the game.

I was a 5pt vet at hiring. I am not really in any position to say what drives the Agency hiring system one way or another, but it has not been my experience that vets are at a disadvantage. In fact, I would say the opposite. In my training class I recall that we had three former JAGs. My recollection was that their work experience was mostly on the criminal side, so no SSA experience. I also recall from later training sessions that at least one of them talked about the difficult transition from a very solid, rule based, criminal law practice, to a very mushy administrative law practice was a challenge. That said, I would argue that SSA would have to fall on the side of military officers with professionalism and work ethic being a big bonus.

There was another comment about a 'liked' candidate getting a boost. I know that if I was making the hiring decisions, and I had an attorney writer, experienced, a hard worker, a team player, highly thought of by office staff and management, who just happened to have a sub-par score, but with a good GAL, I could find a way to make them an offer. Maybe you put the location you want to put them in near the bottom of the list. The high scorers and the vets are gone by the time you near the bottom and their work experience makes them the choice. (Total guesswork on my part).

[Gaidin]

I think the difference in vets getting 3 struck versus non-vets is that like any group of people there are vets who will be rated "do not recommend". However, if someone with no vet preference (myself for instance) is a "do not recommend" they don't have to 3 strike me to avoid hiring me. A person with vet preference on the other hand may need to be 3 struck to avoid hiring them. That doesn't mean that vets won't get a higher per capita percentage of the jobs - at least in the first round - or that the agency doesn't want vets.

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2014 8:45:14 GMT -5 Gaidin said:

I think the difference in vets getting 3 struck versus non-vets is that like any group of people there are vets who will be rated "do not recommend". However, if someone with no vet preference (myself for instance) is a "do not recommend" they don't have to 3 strike me to avoid hiring me. A person with vet preference on the other hand may need to be 3 struck to avoid hiring them. That doesn't mean that vets won't get a higher per capita percentage of the jobs - at least in the first round - or that the agency doesn't want vets.

I agree 100%!