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Post by anotherfed on Mar 22, 2014 10:00:31 GMT -5
This may sound crazy. There was info on this board that ODAR had received a cert within days of the NOR's. From what I remember about other cert requests, it takes maybe a week or more for OPM to deliver a cert (even for a small cert) after the request. There was mention (although from what has now been deemed an unreliabel source) that ODAR could be asking for a cert from the old register. If ODAR had advanced info regarding the rules to be applied to the new register, is it possible that they decided to aske for one more cert from the old register (holding their noses of course), to try one more time to make it a little easier (and maybe get some that will not be on the new register)? I don't think so. As of March 13, 2014, the old register ceased to exist. I would think that any cert delivered after that date would be invalid. ODAR may have tried but been thwarted by the release of NORs for the new Register.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 22, 2014 10:27:05 GMT -5
Just thinking out loud....or in type as the case may be.
Could opm be attempting to force 3 strikes?
Like, a high scorer with a broad gal is in the top 3 for 20 cities. But opm only puts him on the first 3 certs requested by ssa upon which he is a top 3. Then he is deemed "used" and. doesn't appear on anymore certs? The theory being he will either be hired on one of the 3 or passed over 3 times.
Thus, eliminating odars reported history of enforcing 3 strike only at their pleasure. I realize enforcing the 3 strike is odar,s pleasure by statute, but opm may betrying to make them more uniform in it as chinook noted.
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Post by hopefalj on Mar 22, 2014 11:12:29 GMT -5
I think that a few of the posters above have it right--Puzzle Palace has been three striking too many qualified applicants for too long. Too many of them have ended up being ALJs in other agencies like me and even some have been in a position to complain to OPM about it. Its a touchy subject on this Board and within the ALJ Corps because Judges have been on both edges of that sword. OCALJ knows darn well that their methodology in the past resulted in folks with 40's and 50's getting an offer and at least a couple of hundred applicants with scores twenty or thirty points above never get picked and now, I am truly sad to say, are extinguished. Is that the way OPM envisioned that their Rules are to be implemented? No, I think OPM is putting the Puzzle Palace in a box and its been a long time coming. Remember someone will sue or get the ultimate list or lists from OCALJ and you can bet that the last thing the latter wants is to lose that suit. I have been posting Pixie's Mantra that "scores don't matter". With ALJD's post, they do. How else could we interpret it? As a 30%-10 point Gulf War vet with a high score (thanks to the 10 points) and 85 cities on my GAL, I hope so. I generally do very well in interviews and hope that I can pull a Highly Recommended as to avoid the thoughts of being jacked over by ODAR, but I have said before there seems to be plenty of Vets as ALJs, so I don’t think it’s that bad. But good luck to all as ALJ seems to be a great job for home/family life and job satisfaction. If you interview well and don't accuse any of your interviewers of not having a work ethic then you'll be fine. I disagreeumption is that the majority of the 80+ scores are 5- and 10-point vets, meaning ODAR will definitely hire a large number on this first cert and has hired a large number of vets in the past. Until all the vets for a city have either been hired or three struck, non-vets don't have a chance. At the same time, those vets are likely going up against each other on multiple occasions, meaning they can be three-struck quicker as well.
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 22, 2014 23:36:53 GMT -5
This may sound crazy. There was info on this board that ODAR had received a cert within days of the NOR's. From what I remember about other cert requests, it takes maybe a week or more for OPM to deliver a cert (even for a small cert) after the request. There was mention (although from what has now been deemed an unreliabel source) that ODAR could be asking for a cert from the old register. If ODAR had advanced info regarding the rules to be applied to the new register, is it possible that they decided to aske for one more cert from the old register (holding their noses of course), to try one more time to make it a little easier (and maybe get some that will not be on the new register)? The old register was gone the instant our NORs came out. I do not believe they held their noses and asked for another cert from the old register.
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Post by Ace Midnight on Mar 23, 2014 0:22:42 GMT -5
The old register was gone the instant our NORs came out. I do not believe they held their noses and asked for another cert from the old register. I heard directly from an executive at ODAR who would know, last week, that the reason they had been holding back is that the register (she was speaking to a group, so she did not use these words, exactly, I think she said "list") was not ready. "As of Friday (meaning March 14) we have that list." Take it FWIW. If she doesn't know, nobody does.
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Post by maxlaw on Mar 23, 2014 7:34:20 GMT -5
So maxlaw, not to question your post or sources which I am sure are trustworthy, does ALJD's post change your thinking on your post at all? Do you have any intel on whether they asked for one cert or many? Any additional information would be appreciated. (Edited to avoid any inkling that I was somehow being difficult or hard on maxlaw.) Well, as I mentioned, my information is that SSA has received the list of eligibles. My original information identified a couple of Joe Blows by name, so I don't think that there's any issue there. The timing of the notification ("watch your emails over the next couple of days") was my opinion only based on some other things I've been hearing. All of this was before the new email from OPM, which is new territory for us all. Sorry I can't be more help than that, I know how the endless waiting feels...
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 23, 2014 8:22:00 GMT -5
More random thoughts on the opm cert process changes and its impact:
So, was thinking last nite on why opm made this change and whether it could be something other than the latest salvo in a turf war with ssa. That exercise got me thinking about what other changes have occurred since the last cert was issued.
Before anyone jumps on me, I know the alj hiring still uses the rule of 3 (ie, consideration is given to the top 3 scorers for each slot) but, in most or all other situations, opm has now been directed to use the "category" hiring process.
So, for any other job, it would appear opm would need to refer all candidate for a specific job, delineated only by category to the hiring official (admittedly I am unclear on how categories are decided and what not, but I'm positive someone on this board has knowledge I lack). It would also seem that one important feature of any referral of candidates would be the location of the position.
Thus, as I understand it, if the hypothetical Department of Utterly Moronic Bureaucrats had openings in two cities, it would appear opm would have to send 2 lists (whether called certs or not) to DUMB, one with all candidates in each category that have applied forthe first city and another for the second. To just do one list for both citties would corrupt the categories.
If that's accurate, opm must do individual city certs for all or most jobs, except those like alj that are still using rule of 3 hiring.
Maybe they don't wanna have to keep two seprate processes. By mandating ssa to request individual city certs, opm can essentially use the same process as they do for other jobs. They could just refer every candidate that made the list for any particula city. Only they wouldn't have to categorize us, our competitive exam scores and vet status does that for them. Ssa, still bound by the rule of 3, of course has to consider each slot by looking at the top 3, but would have a list for everyone for that city (or some lesser number than all if opm determined giving 10, 20, 50 names was enough).
So, this cert process change could just be opm's housekeeping to simplify their part of the cert process and not have to run two different processes. In turn, ssa still has plenty of maneuverability as the individual certs just does their usual first step, dividing all the candidates on a cert by city in score order.
Sorry for rambling. Surely some of our brilliant members with a better understanding of ccategories and rule of 3 can flesh this out or dispel the theory.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Mar 23, 2014 8:32:16 GMT -5
Thanks maxlaw. So this begs the question, since they "have received the list of eligibles," if they complied with the new requirement, and sent OPM a separate cert request for each geographic vacancy? Thinking about how this may or may not have changed the game makes my head hurt. Not as much as the LBMT, but pain nonetheless. I looked back at that email again (for the 50th time) and note that although it is not dated, it does state "as of today" the new register is in place and then the "please be aware that going forward, we will issue an individual certificate" so it seems there was not time in between to do it the old way with one certificate. Just paperwork? Maybe we are jumping the gun. Maybe this will not have a "practical" change in the method? We will know soon and this will all be behind everyone. I keep waiting to hear word from members of the board as to getting word of other agency certs as well (not that I am interested as I only want SSA) as this may give us an idea of how the whole process is going in the grand scheme of things with the new register. I guess "patience" is the word of the year! Or maybe "conjecture" is a better word for the year. LOL!
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 23, 2014 8:42:45 GMT -5
Scores came out on the 13th, right?
We know from remarks of DC Sklar and other insider reports that ssa was itching to go with a cert request.
The fastest time from nor release to cert request in the history reported on the board is 12 days.
To match that, ssa needs to request the cert by Tuesday, the 25th.
If it goes much longer than that, it could be a sign this cert process change caught ssa off guard and means they needed time to strategize and plan. If the cert(s) comes out next week, my guess is the changes are a distinction without real difference or at least ssa knew they were coming and has already made any strategy changes they felt necessary to still accomplish their goals.
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Post by dudeabides on Mar 23, 2014 9:03:22 GMT -5
Dumb Question: As I understand it there is the "Rule of Three" and the "Three Strike Rule."
Rule of Three: OPM will send ODAR a "Cert" of AT LEAST Three eligible candidates for consideration for each opening. Three Strike Rule: If a person has been considered 3 times and not selected, ODAR need not consider them again.
What if 20 people are sent over to ODAR for consideration of Openings A, B, and C. Three of the people get selected. Can ODAR then "Three Strike" the remaining 17? A quick and easy way to Three Strike a lot of people and get to the ones ODAR really wants (whomever that might be).
My point: If more than three people are put on the list of eligibles for a give City/opening, more people will be Three Struck faster. Can this been correct?
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 23, 2014 9:15:06 GMT -5
Dude,
First off, whether a person is 3 struck is entirely at the agecy's discretion. If liked, you probably won't be.
Second, for it to count as a strike, you have to have received "bona fide consideration."
There is some good info on what that entails in some other threads. Suffice it to say for now, if one was never in a top 3, they most likely didn't get bona fide consid and can't get a strike.
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Post by minny on Mar 23, 2014 9:20:26 GMT -5
More random thoughts on the opm cert process changes and its impact: So, was thinking last nite on why opm made this change and whether it could be something other than the latest salvo in a turf war with ssa. That exercise got me thinking about what other changes have occurred since the last cert was issued. Before anyone jumps on me, I know the alj hiring still uses the rule of 3 (ie, consideration is given to the top 3 scorers for each slot) but, in most or all other situations, opm has now been directed to use the "category" hiring process. So, for any other job, it would appear opm would need to refer all candidate for a specific job, delineated only by category to the hiring official (admittedly I am unclear on how categories are decided and what not, but I'm positive someone on this board has knowledge I lack). It would also seem that one important feature of any referral of candidates would be the location of the position. Thus, as I understand it, if the hypothetical Department of Utterly Moronic Bureaucrats had openings in two cities, it would appear opm would have to send 2 lists (whether called certs or not) to DUMB, one with all candidates in each category that have applied forthe first city and another for the second. To just do one list for both citties would corrupt the categories. If that's accurate, opm must do individual city certs for all or most jobs, except those like alj that are still using rule of 3 hiring. Maybe they don't wanna have to keep two seprate processes. By mandating ssa to request individual city certs, opm can essentially use the same process as they do for other jobs. They could just refer every candidate that made the list for any particula city. Only they wouldn't have to categorize us, our competitive exam scores and vet status does that for them. Ssa, still bound by the rule of 3, of course has to consider each slot by looking at the top 3, but would have a list for everyone for that city (or some lesser number than all if opm determined giving 10, 20, 50 names was enough). So, this cert process change could just be opm's housekeeping to simplify their part of the cert process and not have to run two different processes. In turn, ssa still has plenty of maneuverability as the individual certs just does their usual first step, dividing all the candidates on a cert by city in score order. Sorry for rambling. Surely some of our brilliant members with a better understanding of ccategories and rule of 3 can flesh this out or dispel the theory. Funky, in most federal hiring processes OPM is not involved at all - other than to write the regulations. I can tell you that when my agency is hiring, the fact that category ranking is going to be used and the cutoff scores for each category (see below, they have to be predefined) are included in the vacancy announcements. The applicants within each category are not distinguished from each other EXCEPT veterans are moved to the head of the pack. This is from OPM's website: Category RatingCategory rating is an alternative ranking and selection procedure authorized under the Chief Human Capital Officers Act of 2002 (Title XIII of the Homeland Security Act of 2002) and codified at 5 U.S.C. § 3319. Category rating is part of the competitive examining process. Under category rating, applicants who meet basic minimum qualification requirements established for the position and whose job-related competencies or knowledge, skills and abilities (KSAs) have been assessed are ranked by being placed in one of two or more predefined quality categories instead of being ranked in numeric score order. Preference eligibles are listed ahead of non-preference eligibles within each quality category. Veterans' preference is absolute within each quality category. For more detailed information on Category Rating please visit Chapter 5 of the Delegated Examining Operations Handbook. I will note, too, that OPM has to bless every veteran passover decision. I suppose this does not stop agencies from playing veterans off each other as has been discussed at length on this forum, but under OPM rules the vets have to notified that they have been three-struck. As for the primary theory in your musings of OPM trying to simplify processes by making things more consistent, that makes a lot of sense to me.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 23, 2014 9:27:33 GMT -5
Thanks Minny. I knew someone on here would know. This board is pretty awesome like that.
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Post by dudeabides on Mar 23, 2014 11:26:15 GMT -5
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Post by futuressaalj on Mar 23, 2014 13:14:49 GMT -5
Yeah, its always good to read his posts--well thought out and written and entertaining too. Do not know if he is going to be able to keep up the productivity on this site once he gets the robe in crapland--I will be impressed if he makes the 600 and keeps up the same amount of activity on here....
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 23, 2014 13:58:26 GMT -5
Yeah, its always good to read his posts--well thought out and written and entertaining too. Do not know if he is going to be able to keep up the productivity on this site once he gets the robe in crapland--I will be impressed if he makes the 600 and keeps up the same amount of activity on here.... Should not be too hard future. All you need is a smartphone and an unhealthy obssession. Of course, should I have the extraordinary good luck to make it, the obsession with getting there will undoubtedly subside. Thus, one apparently finds themselves in one of three categories. Either you disappear entirely, post infrequent but immensly helpful info appreciated by those still trying to climb the hill or you use the board as your own virtual complaint box. No clue into which group I may fall...right now too obsessed with getting there to think too much on what happens once you do.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 24, 2014 15:33:20 GMT -5
I'm with you DD. In the alternative, if it changes "everything," its not like we can do much different. Just wait and hope.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Mar 24, 2014 15:39:58 GMT -5
I'm with you DD. In the alternative, if it changes "everything," its not like we can do much different. Just wait and hope. How deliciously ironic the title of this thread has become.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Mar 24, 2014 15:48:13 GMT -5
I'm with you DD. In the alternative, if it changes "everything," its not like we can do much different. Just wait and hope. How deliciously ironic the title of this thread has become. And if you go back and read my original question....even more ironic! LOL!
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Post by robespierre on Mar 24, 2014 15:57:49 GMT -5
Information forwarded by a forum regular who doesn't want to use his/her own handle: "ALJD, here's an e-mail that was forwarded to me from a friend. I thought you might find the new certificate process noted below to be of interest. Please share with the board as appropriate" * * * Dear Chief ALJ/Designee- The U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) is pleased to announce that effective today, a new Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) register has been established for Federal agency use in filling entry-level ALJ positions. This new register is based on the results of the examination process that applicants were required to complete under Job Opportunity Announcement Number: ALJ2013-847661, which was opened March 5, 2013 – March 15, 2013. As previously announced, the new register terminates and replaces the register established under the previous ALJ examinations (ALJ Vacancy Announcement 2007ALJ-134575, 2008ALJ-134575, and 2009ALJ-134575). Please be aware that going forward, we will issue an individual certificate from the ALJ register for each geographic location requested. Accordingly, if an agency is filling vacancies in multiple geographic locations at one time, a separate SF-39, Request for Referral of Eligibles, must be submitted for each individual location.We appreciate all of the assistance that you and your agency provided us during the examination development and administration process. Your input was invaluable and we are grateful for your continued support of the ALJ Program. * * * If the above e-mail is true, this new cert process might potentially upend most of our assumptions about the cert process from previous hiring cycles. This is still rocking my world trying to figure it out. I am now leaning towards it doesn't change much, if anything. Yah, I'm inclined to agree. SSA is still entitled to consider three people for each vacancy, and to 3-strike anyone who whiffs three times. So after they fill 90 vacancies from the first cert, no matter how you slice it, you'll have: - 90 people off the register because they were hired, - X number of people 3-stricken, - X number of people not hired but who whiffed less than three times, who I suppose become candidates for the next cert if there is one. Seems to me that's roughly the same result you would get under the existing "one big cert" system. So the details of cert-building might be different but the net result looks the same. Either that or something completely different, lol.
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