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Post by funkyodar on Apr 21, 2014 14:35:33 GMT -5
You are right, Hope, but your example is to the extreme. Under the old way, if you were in the top 3 for any city on the cert you made the cert. They would tell you the cities on the cert and you could strike cities, but you would never know which cities you were in the top 3 for.
The result was, for a 90 person hire, the cert would essentially be the top 300 scorers (minus the few high scorers that didn't have any of the cities on the cert in their gal.) Thus, it was easy to figure out the score point that represented the cuttoff for the cert. Plenty of threads on that.
In your example, you are correct that you would be considered for toledo, but not for seattle. But, any city you were in the top 10 for could be a reality. As people above you on those cities were hired and 3 struck, you could move up into the top 3 for them. Since the cert essentially represented the top 300 scorers, there was no worry that someone with a higher score for one of those cities was left off the cert.
Not so now. If you just make the cert for toledo, that's all you can be considered for. Let's say they ask for 5 per slot. You are number 2 for toledo and number 7 for chicago. So you make the cert for toledo and not chicago. Let's say the top 1 for chicago got hired elsewhere or three struck. Under the old way, you move up and are now in consideration for chitown. Under the new way you can't be considered for chicago. You weren't certified for that city and, that poor bastard that had only had chicago on his Gal and just missed the cert because he had the 6th highest score for there might get pissed when you, number 7 for chitown, passes him over.
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Post by moopigsdad on Apr 21, 2014 14:40:07 GMT -5
Wow, I go off for a little Spring Break cruise with the family and BAM! 18 pages on Funky's rumour - it took me half the morning to read during breaks but I think I'm caught up. Forgive me if this was discussed on page 14 of this thread and I skipped it, but if the cert is per city, and there are sometimes more than one office in a city (St. Louis anyone?), would the prevailing WAG be that ODAR asks for 6 - 10 folks for that city? Additionally, if ODAR is thinking of jamming 2 newbie ALJ's in a crapland office (let's pick Johnstown, PA) then wouldn't ODAR ask for 6 - 10 folks for a Johnstown, PA cert? What I'm getting at is that Funky, MPD, Val, aljhopeful, etc are all right in a sense - the certs are per city, but not per office. The final count, and how many are interviewed will probably be the same, just the path taken has a few massive potholes we'd all like to drive around (including ODAR). While the per office ratio may be in the range of 3 (minimum) to 5 (as per Funky's source), ODAR may be requesting that OPM expand a particular city (St. Louis) if they plan to hire for multiple offices in that city. A candidate appears on several certs for multiple cities, but in reality, the 45 cities requested as individual certs results in the same gross number of candidates as in years past. Then, when ODAR asks that you rank your cities, it will help narrow the actual number of interviews to be conducted. Perhaps only consider the top 3 choices listed by candidates? ODAR can get the hiring done after the interviews are completed much more quickly because they shouldn't have to wait for folks to turn down an offer, or even 'mull it over' - I mean you already ranked your cities! Just a thought - I wonder if anyone will be stupid enough to rank their cities, get interviewed, offered the position in their #3 city and then turn it down? I am sure it will happen. I know I skipped a few steps. Bear with me, we got caught in a storm, no port calls for days, and I still feel like I'm aboard the ship! A bad day at sea is better than a good day at the office though . . . It will teach you to take those "Spring Break" cruises. LOL! Welcome back to dry land my friend. Let's see if I understand your post correctly or please straighten me out if I have it wrong. You stated: Then, when ODAR asks that you rank your cities, it will help narrow the actual number of interviews to be conducted. Perhaps only consider the top 3 choices listed by candidates? ODAR can get the hiring done after the interviews are completed much more quickly because they shouldn't have to wait for folks to turn down an offer, or even 'mull it over' - I mean you already ranked your cities!Are you insinuating that ODAR may not bother to interview you, if you happen to be the 8th or 9th highest on a cert location and you listed it as your number 1 location? If SSA is still going to interview everyone, then really to some extent our ranking of cities of choice to work in will have little effect, unless we all list different locations. Let's say nobody lists Johnstown, PA as one of their top 3 locations and yet there is an opening SSA wants to fill there. Does this mean SSA will not hire anyone there? I don't think so, because SSA has a spot to fill, so it will name whomever it wants to fill that location whether it was in their top three locations or not. I don't think giving our preferences of where we are willing to work will help SSA speed up the process of hiring. I do agree with a lot of your thinking on the process, but I am trying to clarify some of your positions in my head.
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Post by moopigsdad on Apr 21, 2014 14:46:12 GMT -5
You are right, Hope, but your example is to the extreme. Under the old way, if you were in the top 3 for any city on the cert you made the cert. They would tell you the cities on the cert and you could strike cities, but you would never know which cities you were in the top 3 for. The result was, for a 90 person hire, the cert would essentially be the top 300 scorers (minus the few high scorers that didn't have any of the cities on the cert in their gal.) Thus, it was easy to figure out the score point that represented the cuttoff for the cert. Plenty of threads on that. In your example, you are correct that you would be considered for toledo, but not for seattle. But, any city you were in the top 10 for could be a reality. As people above you on those cities were hired and 3 struck, you could move up into the top 3 for them. Since the cert essentially represented the top 300 scorers, there was no worry that someone with a higher score for one of those cities was left off the cert. Not so now. If you just make the cert for toledo, that's all you can be considered for. Let's say they ask for 5 per slot. You are number 2 for toledo and number 7 for chicago. So you make the cert for toledo and not chicago. Let's say the top 1 for chicago got hired elsewhere or three struck. Under the old way, you move up and are now in consideration for chitown. Under the new way you can't be considered for chicago. You weren't certified for that city and, that poor bastard that had only had chicago on his Gal and just missed the cert because he had the 6th highest score for there might get pissed when you, number 7 for chitown, passes him over. Funky what do you mean that hope passes over the poor bastard who (with a limited GAL) was the sixth highest scorer when hope had the seventh highest score for Chicago? Please explain.
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Post by ok1956 on Apr 21, 2014 14:57:20 GMT -5
Welcome back Sealaw! Perhaps you should extend your vacation a few more days - that might ensure the cert comes out this week. LOL
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 21, 2014 14:59:15 GMT -5
You are right, Hope, but your example is to the extreme. Under the old way, if you were in the top 3 for any city on the cert you made the cert. They would tell you the cities on the cert and you could strike cities, but you would never know which cities you were in the top 3 for. The result was, for a 90 person hire, the cert would essentially be the top 300 scorers (minus the few high scorers that didn't have any of the cities on the cert in their gal.) Thus, it was easy to figure out the score point that represented the cuttoff for the cert. Plenty of threads on that. In your example, you are correct that you would be considered for toledo, but not for seattle. But, any city you were in the top 10 for could be a reality. As people above you on those cities were hired and 3 struck, you could move up into the top 3 for them. Since the cert essentially represented the top 300 scorers, there was no worry that someone with a higher score for one of those cities was left off the cert. Not so now. If you just make the cert for toledo, that's all you can be considered for. Let's say they ask for 5 per slot. You are number 2 for toledo and number 7 for chicago. So you make the cert for toledo and not chicago. Let's say the top 1 for chicago got hired elsewhere or three struck. Under the old way, you move up and are now in consideration for chitown. Under the new way you can't be considered for chicago. You weren't certified for that city and, that poor bastard that had only had chicago on his Gal and just missed the cert because he had the 6th highest score for there might get pissed when you, number 7 for chitown, passes him over. Funky what do you mean that hope passes over the poor bastard who (with a limited GAL) was the sixth highest scorer when hope had the seventh highest score for Chicago? Please explain. Ok, let's see if I can clarify. Hope makes the cert for toledo cause he is top 3 there and ssa asks for 5 names per slot. Let's say he is #7 for chicago. So he doesn't make the cert for chicago Because not in top 5 for there. But let's say #1 for chicago is also #1 for St louis and is hired there. Now they need one more for chitown to have 5. Hope is the highest ranked person on the cert with chitown in his gal thats not already certed for chitown, under the old method he gets moved up and is now in the top 5 for chicago. But, what about gary who had the 6th highest score for chicago and didn't make the cert because he wasn't in the top 5 and only had chicago on his gal? Ssa can't just move hope up for consideration for chitown, unlike before its not a single cert and the fact that he is on a cert for toledo makes no difference. Ssa would either have to choose from the remaining 4 on chicagos individual cert or request a new one that would include gary. Or gary has a pretty easy lawsuit. Short story, now that its individualized certs for each city, I don't see how anyone could possibly be considered or hired for a city they aren't specifically certed for. In hopes extreme example of being top 3 for Toledo and #471 for Seatle, its a distinction without a difference. But when he is top 3 for toledo and just barely misses the cert for another city, it could be hugely different.
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Post by gary on Apr 21, 2014 15:03:24 GMT -5
Funky what do you mean that hope passes over the poor bastard who (with a limited GAL) was the sixth highest scorer when hope had the seventh highest score for Chicago? Please explain. Ok, let's see if I can clarify. Hope makes the cert for toledo cause he is top 3 there and ssa asks for 5 names per slot. Let's say he is #7 for chicago. So he doesn't make the cert for chicago Because not in top 5 for there. But let's say #1 for chicago is also #1 for St louis and is hired there. Now they need one more for chitown to have 5. Hope is the highest ranked person on the cert with chitown in his gal thats not already certed for chitown, under the old method he gets moved up and is now in the top 5 for chicago. But, what about gary who had the 6th highest score for chicago and didn't make the cert because he wasn't in the top 5 and only had chicago on his gal? Ssa can't just move hope up for consideration for chitown, unlike before its not a single cert and the fact that he is on a cert for toledo makes no difference. Ssa would either have to choose from the remaining 4 on chicagos individual cert or request a new one that would include gary. Or gary has a pretty easy lawsuit. Short story, now that its individualized certs for each city, I don't see how anyone could possibly be considered or hired for a city they aren't specifically certed for. In hopes extreme example of being top 3 for Toledo and #471 for Seatle, its a distinction without a difference. But when he is top 3 for toledo and just barely misses the cert for another city, it could be hugely different. Can you make this happen? Not all of it. Just the part about gary getting considered.
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Post by hopefalj on Apr 21, 2014 15:04:44 GMT -5
You are right, Hope, but your example is to the extreme. Under the old way, if you were in the top 3 for any city on the cert you made the cert. They would tell you the cities on the cert and you could strike cities, but you would never know which cities you were in the top 3 for. The result was, for a 90 person hire, the cert would essentially be the top 300 scorers (minus the few high scorers that didn't have any of the cities on the cert in their gal.) Thus, it was easy to figure out the score point that represented the cuttoff for the cert. Plenty of threads on that. In your example, you are correct that you would be considered for toledo, but not for seattle. But, any city you were in the top 10 for could be a reality. As people above you on those cities were hired and 3 struck, you could move up into the top 3 for them. Since the cert essentially represented the top 300 scorers, there was no worry that someone with a higher score for one of those cities was left off the cert. Not so now. If you just make the cert for toledo, that's all you can be considered for. Let's say they ask for 5 per slot. You are number 2 for toledo and number 7 for chicago. So you make the cert for toledo and not chicago. Let's say the top 1 for chicago got hired elsewhere or three struck. Under the old way, you move up and are now in consideration for chitown. Under the new way you can't be considered for chicago. You weren't certified for that city and, that poor bastard that had only had chicago on his Gal and just missed the cert because he had the 6th highest score for there might get pissed when you, number 7 for chitown, passes him over. My initial thoughts were that your Chicago example was illegal, but in reading the regulations, I think you're right. I guess the question is whether the number of names provided in the past actually got someone like the 7th ranked candidate the job in Chicago. Or to use my Seattle example, I would actually be 16th on the list under the old method.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 21, 2014 15:10:34 GMT -5
Think of the cert like ssa ordering a meal for 45 people.
In the past they just ordered an extremely large pizza and could slice it up however they wanted, smaller pieces for some, larger for others, no mushrooms for some, etc.
Now tho, they have to order specifically for each "person." No creative slicing, removal of toppings or switching up the orders. If they order a specific thin crust ham and pineapple for Mr Valpraiso they can't give a piece of that to Mr St Louis or take a slice from Mrs Toledo and give it to Mr Valpraiso.
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Post by moopigsdad on Apr 21, 2014 15:16:53 GMT -5
Funky thank you so much for clarifying your post that I had a question about. I wasn't sure what you meant about hope moving up. I could see it for the old certs, but not the new ones. I agree with your example completely.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 21, 2014 15:18:55 GMT -5
Have we torpedoed the idea that when OPM "shall certify enough names from the top of the appropriate register to permit a nominating or appointing authority who has requested a certificate of eligibles to consider at least three names for appointment to each vacancy in the competitive service," that OPM must give them five, or less? What if OPM has identified the issue and simply gives them everyone in each location according to score? Or gives them, say, the first 45 in each location. That would solve the problem, or prevent the problem, yes? That's certainly possible. The way I read the regs, opm has to give sufficient candidates so that the requesting agency has 3 to choose from for each slot. That 3 # is a minimum. Apparently agencies can ask for more per slot. Easiest thing would be just refer every candidate for each city in score order. But ssa likes to interview everyone on a cert (not sure they have to) and interviewing everyone doesn't make sense. Supposedly they went back and forth with opm on how to ensure they get enough people to consider. I bet opm looked at the reg, looked at how omha did it and suggested a # per slot to odar that would ensure they have at least 3 per slot regardless of what happens with the people on multiple certs. That number may very well be 5. Maybe we will find out soon.
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Post by moopigsdad on Apr 21, 2014 15:19:54 GMT -5
Have we torpedoed the idea that when OPM "shall certify enough names from the top of the appropriate register to permit a nominating or appointing authority who has requested a certificate of eligibles to consider at least three names for appointment to each vacancy in the competitive service," that OPM must give them five, or less? What if OPM has identified the issue and simply gives them everyone in each location according to score? Or gives them, say, the first 45 in each location. That would solve the problem, or prevent the problem, yes? I don't think we have completely torpedoed any idea devildog. It is likely SSA will certainly be offered more than three names for each SSA cert location requested of OPM, but we don't know for sure how many more names. Whether its five or seven or nine or not-likely 45 names for the cert location, we don't know for sure and it is all speculation right now. Just sending SSA three names for each location is not likely to happen, but how many total names requested by SSA and sent by OPM is an unknown right now.
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Post by sealaw90 on Apr 21, 2014 15:27:47 GMT -5
Wow, I go off for a little Spring Break cruise with the family and BAM! 18 pages on Funky's rumour - it took me half the morning to read during breaks but I think I'm caught up. . . . Then, when ODAR asks that you rank your cities, it will help narrow the actual number of interviews to be conducted. Perhaps only consider the top 3 choices listed by candidates? ODAR can get the hiring done after the interviews are completed much more quickly because they shouldn't have to wait for folks to turn down an offer, or even 'mull it over' - I mean you already ranked your cities! Just a thought - I wonder if anyone will be stupid enough to rank their cities, get interviewed, offered the position in their #3 city and then turn it down? I am sure it will happen. I know I skipped a few steps. Bear with me, we got caught in a storm, no port calls for days, and I still feel like I'm aboard the ship! A bad day at sea is better than a good day at the office though . . . It will teach you to take those "Spring Break" cruises. LOL! Welcome back to dry land my friend. Let's see if I understand your post correctly or please straighten me out if I have it wrong. You stated: Then, when ODAR asks that you rank your cities, it will help narrow the actual number of interviews to be conducted. Perhaps only consider the top 3 choices listed by candidates? ODAR can get the hiring done after the interviews are completed much more quickly because they shouldn't have to wait for folks to turn down an offer, or even 'mull it over' - I mean you already ranked your cities!Are you insinuating that ODAR may not bother to interview you, if you happen to be the 8th or 9th highest on a cert location and you listed it as your number 1 location? If SSA is still going to interview everyone, then really to some extent our ranking of cities of choice to work in will have little effect, unless we all list different locations. Let's say nobody lists Johnstown, PA as one of their top 3 locations and yet there is an opening SSA wants to fill there. Does this mean SSA will not hire anyone there? I don't think so, because SSA has a spot to fill, so it will name whomever it wants to fill that location whether it was in their top three locations or not. I don't think giving our preferences of where we are willing to work will help SSA speed up the process of hiring. I do agree with a lot of your thinking on the process, but I am trying to clarify some of your positions in my head. mpd, you're close to what I was insinuating, but with a slight twist. Funky's source told him the following: "Under the new process, odar is not just gonna allow you to opt out of a city or so, they are gonna let you rank the cities you are on the certs for in order of which you prefer most." When do we assume that ranking is going to take place? Before or after the interview? I think we are all assuming the ranking takes place before the interview - I mean before you are even considered for an interview. How about at the point you receive your notification that you made the certificates for the following cities - please rank the top 3, 5, or whatever number works for SSA. That seams to be a safe assumption. I do not think that every person- on every certificate - gets the chance to rank all their cities - all at once. I think ODAR selects the cities they want to fill first (maybe 10 - 20 cities) and start working their way through the candidates's rankings to determine who are the top 3 for each of those cities, and they are scheduled for an interview. Then, the next batch of cities that need an ALJ (but not as 'badly' as the first bunch - I am thinking this is a triage situation) has a certificate that needs to be adjusted - some names dropped off because they are being interviewed for the first batch of cities. For example, someone who ranked Brooklyn as #5 may now be in contention because the #4 candidate for Brooklyn got moved to the Queens certificate since they ranked that higher anyway (#3) and the #4 for Queens will actually be interviewed for their #1 choice (say Tampa), so they move off the Queens certificate. Soooo, the #8 or 9 candidate doesn't get a notification right away to rank their cities, they may get the email a week later, and they need to rank the cities on their email, but they notice it only has crapland citites on it, not the 179 cities they asked for. Magically, Johnstown will get selected by at least 3 folks - why? Becasue they want to be an ALJ, and if my choice was Reno, Fresno, Paducah or Johnstown, because that was all that was left for me to rank (remmber my score is in the middle of the pack, not a 90) I would pick Johnstown in a heartbeat and never look back. Did I muddy the waters more mpd??
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Post by sealaw90 on Apr 21, 2014 15:31:16 GMT -5
Welcome back Sealaw! Perhaps you should extend your vacation a few more days - that might ensure the cert comes out this week. LOL Exactly - I assumed it would come out when I was disconnected from the world. I seriously thought of paying for an internet connection just to get my "fix" of ALJ Board, but I already spent enough money on going to DC for the test and couldn't see spending more! LOL!
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Post by moopigsdad on Apr 21, 2014 15:40:10 GMT -5
It will teach you to take those "Spring Break" cruises. LOL! Welcome back to dry land my friend. Let's see if I understand your post correctly or please straighten me out if I have it wrong. You stated: Then, when ODAR asks that you rank your cities, it will help narrow the actual number of interviews to be conducted. Perhaps only consider the top 3 choices listed by candidates? ODAR can get the hiring done after the interviews are completed much more quickly because they shouldn't have to wait for folks to turn down an offer, or even 'mull it over' - I mean you already ranked your cities!Are you insinuating that ODAR may not bother to interview you, if you happen to be the 8th or 9th highest on a cert location and you listed it as your number 1 location? If SSA is still going to interview everyone, then really to some extent our ranking of cities of choice to work in will have little effect, unless we all list different locations. Let's say nobody lists Johnstown, PA as one of their top 3 locations and yet there is an opening SSA wants to fill there. Does this mean SSA will not hire anyone there? I don't think so, because SSA has a spot to fill, so it will name whomever it wants to fill that location whether it was in their top three locations or not. I don't think giving our preferences of where we are willing to work will help SSA speed up the process of hiring. I do agree with a lot of your thinking on the process, but I am trying to clarify some of your positions in my head. mpd, you're close to what I was insinuating, but with a slight twist. Funky's source told him the following: "Under the new process, odar is not just gonna allow you to opt out of a city or so, they are gonna let you rank the cities you are on the certs for in order of which you prefer most." When do we assume that ranking is going to take place? Before or after the interview? I think we are all assuming the ranking takes place before the interview - I mean before you are even considered for an interview. How about at the point you receive your notification that you made the certificates for the following cities - please rank the top 3, 5, or whatever number works for SSA. That seams to be a safe assumption. I do not think that every person- on every certificate - gets the chance to rank all their cities - all at once. I think ODAR selects the cities they want to fill first (maybe 10 - 20 cities) and start working their way through the candidates's rankings to determine who are the top 3 for each of those cities, and they are scheduled for an interview. Then, the next batch of cities that need an ALJ (but not as 'badly' as the first bunch - I am thinking this is a triage situation) has a certificate that needs to be adjusted - some names dropped off because they are being interviewed for the first batch of cities. For example, someone who ranked Brooklyn as #5 may now be in contention because the #4 candidate for Brooklyn got moved to the Queens certificate since they ranked that higher anyway (#3) and the #4 for Queens will actually be interviewed for their #1 choice (say Tampa), so they move off the Queens certificate. Soooo, the #8 or 9 candidate doesn't get a notification right away to rank their cities, they may get the email a week later, and they need to rank the cities on their email, but they notice it only has crapland citites on it, not the 179 cities they asked for. Magically, Johnstown will get selected by at least 3 folks - why? Becasue they want to be an ALJ, and if my choice was Reno, Fresno, Paducah or Johnstown, because that was all that was left for me to rank (remmber my score is in the middle of the pack, not a 90) I would pick Johnstown in a heartbeat and never look back. Did I muddy the waters more mpd?? Now I seem to be even more confused, but no worries. I don't think SSA has any set way to start filling in its open locations. It may indeed do the Crapland cities first, so it can get to the people it wants who have a limited GAL for the bigger or better cities. We just don't know for sure. I do like your thought process and expressed ideas, I guess because it is a Monday I am just having a little bit of an issue following you completely but that is my problem, but I like the fact you are stating your viewpoint with gusto.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 21, 2014 15:45:30 GMT -5
In looking at old threads and posts, the pattern for what happened when cert notifications went out is telling.
First, its all announcements and congrats. I expect that won't change.
Next, there's a mad dash to put up a poll to try and learn what cities are on the cert. This too, I expect will happen.
Finally, much threading, posting and polling occurs to try and figure out what the score cutoff for the cert was. I've had one judge tell me he missed the cut for one cert by .4 points. This implies that in the past the one big cert has essentially been the entire register down to a certain score point minus those that didnt have any of the cert cities on their gal.
This new process would, seems to me, make that much more difficult to discern. We will have to have polling for each city, not one cert. Again, its a whole new funked up world.
Just look at the omha cert threads. Some made one city, some made 3 of 4. Its harder to distinguish where the point ranges are and even how many are on the certs. Now mutiply that confusion by a factor of 11....
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Post by sealaw90 on Apr 21, 2014 15:46:10 GMT -5
Think of the cert like ssa ordering a meal for 45 people. In the past they just ordered an extremely large pizza and could slice it up however they wanted, smaller pieces for some, larger for others, no mushrooms for some, etc. Now tho, they have to order specifically for each "person." No creative slicing, removal of toppings or switching up the orders. If they order a specific thin crust ham and pineapple for Mr Valpraiso they can't give a piece of that to Mr St Louis or take a slice from Mrs Toledo and give it to Mr Valpraiso. Funky, I agree with your analogy, however, I am thinking there is a possibility of SSA ordering two big pizzas, not just one. And they order them sequentially, not simultaneously. The first pizza goes to the hungriest cities, or the most popular cities, since they are easier to order for. They get a meat lovers pizza. The picky eaters (Mr Johnstown and Mr. Valpraiso) will get to select a slice from the second pizza, probably cheese. This 'pizza' may be comprised of lower-ranked candidates from the hungriest/popular cities, because in those cities, their score was too low. But now, being the second pizza being ordered, they are in the top 3 for the picky-eater pizza. Just another WAG.
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Post by westernalj on Apr 21, 2014 15:53:55 GMT -5
To me it seems likely that if your name is pulled as part of the group needed to ensure that ODAR has enough candidates for each open slot, you will be put on the cert for all the cities on your GAL for which ODAR is hiring. I don't know why OPM wouldn't do this, particularly since OPM doesn't know the order in which SSA will fill the positions. And I can't imagine why ODAR wouldn't prefer this.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Apr 21, 2014 17:07:24 GMT -5
Throwing out my WAG here:
I assume ODAR’s goal is to get a cert that complies with the regs and allows them to fill all open slots with the best candidates while conducting the fewest interviews. How do they do this?
1. Get a cert for each city, because OPM said they had to do it this way this time.
2. Ask OPM to send the number of names for each city that will mean (assuming that at the end of the process, if ALL other open positions have been filled) the LAST city with an open position will have at least three viable non-three-struck candidates who each have that city on their GAL.
3. OPM says “sure”–and starts at the top of the scores. Candidate 1–is he on any of the cert-requested 45 cities? If so, he is added to the cert for each of those cities. Since he is on the cert for multiple cities, he does NOT count against the minimum of three for ANY of those cities, since he could end up getting a job in any of them and thus not being available in factor #2 above for the other cities in his GAL if they end up being the very last one filled (thus depriving ODAR of three names for that last city, as is required by the regulation).
4. Candidate 2 is considered. Her GAL does not include any of the 45 cities-she is passed over.
5. Candidate 3 is considered. He has a GAL of ONLY one 45er. He goes on the cert for that city, and he DOES count toward that city’s “rule of three” cert requirement, since it is a certainty that he will not be placed elsewhere.
6. This process continues. Let’s say it reaches down to Register score #350, “Miss350”. Many dozens of small GALs have been eliminated above her, allowing OPM to reach this far to consider her for inclusion in the cert. She happens to have Johnstown as the only 45er in her GAL. She will be placed on the Johnstown cert and is now the FIRST of its candidates to count toward the “rule of three”. That is, it was conceivable that each of the other Johnstown candidates above her (who are all on multiple certs) could be placed elsewhere, depriving Johnstown of three for consideration, UNTIL Miss350 made Johnstown’s cert.
7. The process continues down the list of scores until a city has three candidates on its cert whose presence guarantees that there will be three candidates in consideration for that city regardless of who else gets what other jobs in any other city. Obviously, these need to be people who have only that one of the 45 vacant cities on their GAL (they can have other cities there, just not others in the vacant 45). At that point the cert for that city is closed.
8. Once the cert for each and every city has 3 candidates who are UNIQUE to that city’s cert, i.e., could only end up there, then and only then has OPM certified the required number of candidates for that city. Once that happens, no further candidates are considered, and the certs are delivered.
9. ODAR will then notify, get and check references, etc. How does ODAR handle interviews? If it wants to minimize the number of interviews it has to conduct, it starts at the top of the candidate score list and begins a series of interviews moving down by score. As matches are found, those cities are removed from contention. If, say, Tampa is filled early by a high scoring candidate, then all the three relatively low scorers who constituted the unique “rule of three” fillers at the bottom of the Tampa cert are removed for contention for any job and not interviewed. Others on the Tampa cert who have not been interviewed yet may still be interviewed because of their presence on other cert(s) which haven’t been filled. Many more still will not be interviewed as they are in the middle of the lists of certs for just a few cities, and those cities get filled before they are interviewed, thus eliminating them also. Further, as top scorers are considered repeatedly as one of the top three for their certs and eliminated, the three-strike rule will take its toll.
10. At the end, ODAR will have filled all but Johnstown and Shreveport. There are three candidates for each, and each of those candidates necessarily had no other 45er city in their GALs. They’re interviewed, two are offered, and presumable accept. If, along the way, none of them are deemed worthy or they refuse, then ODAR can request a second cert for that city as needed. Thus there will be minimal second certs required, and very targeted interviewing at that point.
Could OPM put on the cert for each city ALL of the names of candidates who had that 45er city on their GALs? Sure. It would then flood ODAR with dozens of names that, if analyzed per the above, are mathematically certain never to be reached. However, if ODAR interviews as described above, the process would still be essentially the same. There would be a lot us on such "everybody" certs who rejoiced not realizing that we are non-viable from the get-go.
Thus, it seems that for ODAR to make this “per-city” cert work, OPM has to give it a cert that for each open position goes through AT LEAST three “unique” names. This means if there are two vacancies in one city, 6 unique names are required, and so on. It also seems that ODAR has to interview on a rolling basis, starting with the top candidates, if they are to follow the regs as to vet pref and rule of three, AND if they hope to avoid conducting numerous premature and wasted interviews of non-viable (for that cert) candidates.
Release the hounds.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 21, 2014 17:26:52 GMT -5
Throwing out my WAG here: I assume ODAR’s goal is to get a cert that complies with the regs and allows them to fill all open slots with the best candidates while conducting the fewest interviews. How do they do this? 1. Get a cert for each city, because OPM said they had to do it this way this time. 2. Ask OPM to send the number of names for each city that will mean (assuming that at the end of the process, if ALL other open positions have been filled) the LAST city with an open position will have at least three viable non-three-struck candidates who each have that city on their GAL. 3. OPM says “sure”–and starts at the top of the scores. Candidate 1–is he on any of the cert-requested 45 cities? If so, he is added to the cert for each of those cities. Since he is on the cert for multiple cities, he does NOT count against the minimum of three for ANY of those cities, since he could end up getting a job in any of them and thus not being available in factor #2 above for the other cities in his GAL if they end up being the very last one filled (thus depriving ODAR of three names for that last city, as is required by the regulation). 4. Candidate 2 is considered. Her GAL does not include any of the 45 cities-she is passed over. 5. Candidate 3 is considered. He has a GAL of ONLY one 45er. He goes on the cert for that city, and he DOES count toward that city’s “rule of three” cert requirement, since it is a certainty that he will not be placed elsewhere. 6. This process continues. Let’s say it reaches down to Register score #350, “Miss350”. Many dozens of small GALs have been eliminated above her, allowing OPM to reach this far to consider her for inclusion in the cert. She happens to have Johnstown as the only 45er in her GAL. She will be placed on the Johnstown cert and is now the FIRST of its candidates to count toward the “rule of three”. That is, it was conceivable that each of the other Johnstown candidates above her (who are all on multiple certs) could be placed elsewhere, depriving Johnstown of three for consideration, UNTIL Miss350 made Johnstown’s cert. 7. The process continues down the list of scores until a city has three candidates on its cert whose presence guarantees that there will be three candidates in consideration for that city regardless of who else gets what other jobs in any other city. Obviously, these need to be people who have only that one of the 45 vacant cities on their GAL (they can have other cities there, just not others in the vacant 45). At that point the cert for that city is closed. 8. Once the cert for each and every city has 3 candidates who are UNIQUE to that city’s cert, i.e., could only end up there, then and only then has OPM certified the required number of candidates for that city. Once that happens, no further candidates are considered, and the certs are delivered. 9. ODAR will then notify, get and check references, etc. How does ODAR handle interviews? If it wants to minimize the number of interviews it has to conduct, it starts at the top of the candidate score list and begins a series of interviews moving down by score. As matches are found, those cities are removed from contention. If, say, Tampa is filled early by a high scoring candidate, then all the three relatively low scorers who constituted the unique “rule of three” fillers at the bottom of the Tampa cert are removed for contention for any job and not interviewed. Others on the Tampa cert who have not been interviewed yet may still be interviewed because of their presence on other cert(s) which haven’t been filled. Many more still will not be interviewed as they are in the middle of the lists of certs for just a few cities, and those cities get filled before they are interviewed, thus eliminating them also. Further, as top scorers are considered repeatedly as one of the top three for their certs and eliminated, the three-strike rule will take its toll. 10. At the end, ODAR will have filled all but Johnstown and Shreveport. There are three candidates for each, and each of those candidates necessarily had no other 45er city in their GALs. They’re interviewed, two are offered, and presumable accept. If, along the way, none of them are deemed worthy or they refuse, then ODAR can request a second cert for that city as needed. Thus there will be minimal second certs required, and very targeted interviewing at that point. Could OPM put on the cert for each city ALL of the names of candidates who had that 45er city on their GALs? Sure. It would then flood ODAR with dozens of names that, if analyzed per the above, are mathematically certain never to be reached. However, if ODAR interviews as described above, the process would still be essentially the same. There would be a lot us on such "everybody" certs who rejoiced not realizing that we are non-viable from the get-go. Thus, it seems that for ODAR to make this “per-city” cert work, OPM has to give it a cert that for each open position goes through AT LEAST three “unique” names. This means if there are two vacancies in one city, 6 unique names are required, and so on. It also seems that ODAR has to interview on a rolling basis, starting with the top candidates, if they are to follow the regs as to vet pref and rule of three, AND if they hope to avoid conducting numerous premature and wasted interviews of non-viable (for that cert) candidates. Release the hounds. I'm with you through at least step 8 (opm's involvement). Not sure about 9 and 10, gonna have to put more thought in that. My gut is they won't have time for the "rolling interviews" you propose. But maybe. Or maybe with some tweaks. Very thoughtful wag sandi. Thanks.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Apr 21, 2014 17:34:08 GMT -5
Thanks, Funky. I blush at praise coming from such an erudite analyst as you. I definitely erred in implying in step 10 that the unique candidates would necessarily be reached. Of course, they may not be reached at all, in multiple cities.
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