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Post by privateatty on Jun 19, 2014 20:10:04 GMT -5
Its not even the issue of salaries.
One of the Article III Judges who presided in my jurisdiction when I was a shave-tail associate died. The work in the 80's was crushing and he died of a myocardial infartion. He worked long hours in civil cases what with meetings with counsel re: jury instructions, Motions and witness issues, to name a few. As to the latter he paid a price. It was the talk of the federal bar.
He worked easily 50-60 hours a week and had to face the weight of the job--and what it could do.
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Post by hamster on Jun 19, 2014 21:57:07 GMT -5
I have been an ALJ for 2.5 years. ODAR is not the Gulag. Being hired as an ALJ is a privilege--it is not a sentence to hard labor for eight years. If a candidate has too many personal, family, or professional concerns to take the job, then one should turn it down. If you take the job and you later decide you don't want it, one can quit. This is not indentured servitude. I have posted about the job before--and I feel positive about it and recommend the job to a lot of my friends. I don't know Bartleby, but it seems to me he finds a lot of things about the job to dislike. However, the proof of the pudding--whatever that expression really means--is that he isn't a FORMER ALJ. He complains, but he's STILL an ALJ. Go figure! Maybe the gig isn't so bad after all, Bart?
Jobs in America are like marriages. You might wake up one day and realize that your wonderful spouse stopped being so wonderful a couple of years ago. If that happens, we have something called "divorce" in this country. One day you realize that your house is too small? So sell it and get a larger one. Or a different car. Or a new pair of shoes. The ALJ job is like that pair of shoes. Maybe it's a good fit--so you'll keep the pair. If it's not, you donate that pair of shoes to the Salvation Army and give somebody else a chance to wear them. Same for second marriages and buying an older home. I myself like being an ALJ a lot, so I'll keep that pair of shoes, thank you very much. However, you are welcome to Gretchen.
Seriously, the decision whether to accept the job is a personal one. Only you can make it. But I enjoy being an ALJ (this is my second career--the first was as an Air Force JAG for 20 years). It's a great job and has a lot to offer. I think that most people should take the job if it's offered. Remember, you can always quit in a year if you find it's really not your cup of tea. We're all Judicial Comrades here, but ODAR is not the Gulag.
Best, Hamster
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Post by Radoy Knuf on Jun 19, 2014 22:13:50 GMT -5
Our old departed friend aljfaq beat this drum more than a few times. He, however, never made it to The Show such that a transfer could be effected. I'm sure somewhere out there, ALJFAQ is reading this post and thinking, "I did make it! I am in the Show! I had to leave the board in February because my anonymity was compromised. And now I'm just waiting for an Agency that does something other than decide who's going to pay for Uncle Mile's smoking habit to give me a call." But that's just a hunch . . .
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Post by agilitymom on Jun 19, 2014 22:14:26 GMT -5
Well said Hamster.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 23:01:30 GMT -5
I have been an ALJ for 2.5 years. ODAR is not the Gulag. Being hired as an ALJ is a privilege--it is not a sentence to hard labor for eight years. If a candidate has too many personal, family, or professional concerns to take the job, then one should turn it down. If you take the job and you later decide you don't want it, one can quit. This is not indentured servitude. I have posted about the job before--and I feel positive about it and recommend the job to a lot of my friends. I don't know Bartleby, but it seems to me he finds a lot of things about the job to dislike. However, the proof of the pudding--whatever that expression really means--is that he isn't a FORMER ALJ. He complains, but he's STILL an ALJ. Go figure! Maybe the gig isn't so bad after all, Bart? Jobs in America are like marriages. You might wake up one day and realize that your wonderful spouse stopped being so wonderful a couple of years ago. If that happens, we have something called "divorce" in this country. One day you realize that your house is too small? So sell it and get a larger one. Or a different car. Or a new pair of shoes. The ALJ job is like that pair of shoes. Maybe it's a good fit--so you'll keep the pair. If it's not, you donate that pair of shoes to the Salvation Army and give somebody else a chance to wear them. Same for second marriages and buying an older home. I myself like being an ALJ a lot, so I'll keep that pair of shoes, thank you very much. However, you are welcome to Gretchen. Seriously, the decision whether to accept the job is a personal one. Only you can make it. But I enjoy being an ALJ (this is my second career--the first was as an Air Force JAG for 20 years). It's a great job and has a lot to offer. I think that most people should take the job if it's offered. Remember, you can always quit in a year if you find it's really not your cup of tea. We're all Judicial Comrades here, but ODAR is not the Gulag. Best, Hamster Great post Hamster!!! It would be my 3rd career and if I did not like it after a few years, I would move on to my 4th or 5th career. Woody may have made a mistake with his choice, but I have been in private practice for 14 years and it would take a "firestorm" of crap to make ODAR a worse situation than private practice in terms of the time and stress requirements. If all you have done is government work, then I don't know what to say there, but solo practice sucks in any city.
I don't think I made the cut, but I would love to be in the place of Woody or whomever. Try private practice for a dozen years and get back to me if you are still happy with it.
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Post by sealaw90 on Jun 20, 2014 7:58:21 GMT -5
I have been an ALJ for 2.5 years. ODAR is not the Gulag. Being hired as an ALJ is a privilege--it is not a sentence to hard labor for eight years. If a candidate has too many personal, family, or professional concerns to take the job, then one should turn it down. If you take the job and you later decide you don't want it, one can quit. This is not indentured servitude. I have posted about the job before--and I feel positive about it and recommend the job to a lot of my friends. I don't know Bartleby, but it seems to me he finds a lot of things about the job to dislike. However, the proof of the pudding--whatever that expression really means--is that he isn't a FORMER ALJ. He complains, but he's STILL an ALJ. Go figure! Maybe the gig isn't so bad after all, Bart? Jobs in America are like marriages. You might wake up one day and realize that your wonderful spouse stopped being so wonderful a couple of years ago. If that happens, we have something called "divorce" in this country. One day you realize that your house is too small? So sell it and get a larger one. Or a different car. Or a new pair of shoes. The ALJ job is like that pair of shoes. Maybe it's a good fit--so you'll keep the pair. If it's not, you donate that pair of shoes to the Salvation Army and give somebody else a chance to wear them. Same for second marriages and buying an older home. I myself like being an ALJ a lot, so I'll keep that pair of shoes, thank you very much. However, you are welcome to Gretchen. Seriously, the decision whether to accept the job is a personal one. Only you can make it. But I enjoy being an ALJ (this is my second career--the first was as an Air Force JAG for 20 years). It's a great job and has a lot to offer. I think that most people should take the job if it's offered. Remember, you can always quit in a year if you find it's really not your cup of tea. We're all Judicial Comrades here, but ODAR is not the Gulag. Best, Hamster Great post Hamster!!! It would be my 3rd career and if I did not like it after a few years, I would move on to my 4th or 5th career. Woody may have made a mistake with his choice, but I have been in private practice for 14 years and it would take a "firestorm" of crap to make ODAR a worse situation than private practice in terms of the time and stress requirements. If all you have done is government work, then I don't know what to say there, but solo practice sucks in any city.
I don't think I made the cut, but I would love to be in the place of Woody or whomever. Try private practice for a dozen years and get back to me if you are still happy with it.
Sometimes with all the negative posts, you get that feeling that it may not be such a great job. Of course I don't know who these actual posters are, so perhaps they are nothing like me and their negative opinion wouldn't carry any weight in 'real' life. BUT, Tiger's post reminds me of why I want to do this despite all the negative press on this board - solo practice has it's good/great moments, but those are few and far between. I stilll remember. So, even though I normally do not like your posts Tiger - Thank you for this post. The ALJ gig couldn't possibly be worse than the office politics I live with now, or worse than the biggest A-hole Captain I shoveled crap for on active duty, or worse than the crazy/stupid/life-sucking clients that occasionally crept in, despite your best efforts to screen clients before signing the retainer agreement. Yes, the ALJ gig may not be a marriage to Prince Charming, but it has GOT to be better than kissing frogs. BTW Tiger, I hope your not on spouse # 4 or 5, that gets expensive!! Keep the 'good, bad and the ugly' posts about ALJ life coming, as it is better to be forwarned, and this seems to be the a solid place to get good intel on the job for us outsiders.
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Post by crab on Jun 20, 2014 9:16:42 GMT -5
Like sealaw90, I appreciate hearing the good, the bad, and the ugly. I hope to have the opportunity to draw my own conclusion(s) someday. But I love hamster's shoe analogy. Life is like that. Sometimes you buy them because they have window appeal and actually do right by you for the first 20 miles but then start to rub in spots. So you either grab a little moleskin and try to work with it because they still look damn good or you toss 'em to the curb because it's time - and you have that choice (and boy o' boy what freedom and privilege it is to actually have the luxury to make that choice). And oft times you wear those shoes till you've walked the tread off because they just feel better and better with each mile. That's what I'm hoping for. And because that post feels too heavy, I'll share with you my favorite Steve Martin clip, and what I often think of when I hear folks opining about the horrors of the position. Regardless, I'm still thirsty.
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Post by sealaw90 on Jun 20, 2014 9:33:52 GMT -5
Like sealaw90, I appreciate hearing the good, the bad, and the ugly. I hope to have the opportunity to draw my own conclusion(s) someday. But I love hamster's shoe analogy. Life is like that. Sometimes you buy them because they have window appeal and actually do right by you for the first 20 miles but then start to rub in spots. So you either grab a little moleskin and try to work with it because they still look damn good or you toss 'em to the curb because it's time - and you have that choice (and boy o' boy what freedom and privilege it is to actually have the luxury to make that choice). And oft times you wear those shoes till you've walked the tread off because they just feel better and better with each mile. That's what I'm hoping for. And because that post feels too heavy, I'll share with you my favorite Steve Martin clip, and what I often think of when I hear folks opining about the horrors of the position. Regardless, I'm still thirsty. Crab, I actually saw Steve Martin live and he performed that sketch, along with King Tut and may others - thanks for the memories! (Now I've dated myself horribly, oh crap!)
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Post by gary on Jun 20, 2014 9:58:43 GMT -5
Like sealaw90, I appreciate hearing the good, the bad, and the ugly. I hope to have the opportunity to draw my own conclusion(s) someday. But I love hamster's shoe analogy. Life is like that. Sometimes you buy them because they have window appeal and actually do right by you for the first 20 miles but then start to rub in spots. So you either grab a little moleskin and try to work with it because they still look damn good or you toss 'em to the curb because it's time - and you have that choice (and boy o' boy what freedom and privilege it is to actually have the luxury to make that choice). And oft times you wear those shoes till you've walked the tread off because they just feel better and better with each mile. That's what I'm hoping for. And because that post feels too heavy, I'll share with you my favorite Steve Martin clip, and what I often think of when I hear folks opining about the horrors of the position. Regardless, I'm still thirsty. Crab, I actually saw Steve Martin live and he performed that sketch, along with King Tut and may others - thanks for the memories! (Now I've dated myself horribly, oh crap!) The Steve Martin admission doesn't date you nearly so much as quoting Bob Hope does.
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Post by sealaw90 on Jun 20, 2014 10:08:02 GMT -5
Hah! You got me by a few decades! I remember watching Bob Hope specials though ...
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Post by gary on Jun 20, 2014 10:15:44 GMT -5
Hah! You got me by a few decades! I remember watching Bob Hope specials though ... "A few decades." True, but you could have at least softened the blow by saying "years." You could have picked up "Thanks for the memories" from virtually anything Hope did after 1938, I think. And no, I'm not that old.
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Post by bartleby on Jun 20, 2014 11:00:25 GMT -5
Hamster, in case you haven't noticed, my postings are not opinion, but actual facts and happenings at ODAR. Just as the IRS has become suspect due to recent questions of credibility, ODAR falls under the same scrutiny when the Commissioner testifies that no Judge is required to do 500-700 cases a year and then proof comes forward that Judges are being threatened and punished for not producing 500-700 cases a year. We are all attorneys and some of us are Judges. Does this not bother anyone? I am doing fine in my job and I am happy with it, however, I am concerned with the sense of impropriety that management reflects in their tendency to lie to and about the Agency and to constantly harangue the Judicial Corps. I personally know a Judge that resigned a year after being hired due to the lack of quality standards and that in order to meet quantity standards he/she were going to have to sign their name to decisions that did not meet their personal standards. It was a matter of integrity. I hope that everyone that wants a position gets one, I just want them to be aware of what they are really getting into. Perhaps if someone had done this for my friend he/she would not have gone through the hassle he/she did. He/she was one of the best Judges I have ever met and I will always respect his/her integrity. This is a giant decision. Coming to work here and leaving in a year or two for whatever reason will not look good on your resume. Please put due consideration into this matter and you owe it to yourself to gather as much information as possible. This Agency is in flux and nobody knows what will be next.
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Post by hopefalj on Jun 20, 2014 11:47:01 GMT -5
Just as the IRS has become suspect due to recent questions of credibility, ODAR falls under the same scrutiny when the Commissioner testifies that no Judge is required to do 500-700 cases a year and then proof comes forward that Judges are being threatened and punished for not producing 500-700 cases a year. No judge is required to do 500-700 dispositions as a condition of their employment. Several judges fall below the 500 threshold, and none of them have lost their jobs for that reason. Heck, Judge Frye has issued a whopping 254 total dispositions from October 2009 through last month, and he's in no danger of losing his job. Assuming he has been at the highest salary level for the 4+ years, he's been getting paid over $3k per disposition. Pretty good work if you can get it. Now you very well may be required to schedule 50 hearings a month or dispose of 500-700 cases a year if you want perks like telework. As your contract clearly states as of September 30, 2013, "Teleworking is not a right, but is a benefit that expands work options for Judges for whom this type of arrangement is appropriate." If you are not a fan of the agency having any sort of discretion over telework, and that is certainly understandable, perhaps you should bring this up to the group that agreed to this on your behalf. I've yet to see an ALJ terminated for a lack of production, or more specifically, for failing to hit 500 dispositions. If management were doing that, they'd have to replace at least 600 ALJs due to last year's shortfall based on my very unscientific yet conservative estimation.
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Post by sealaw90 on Jun 20, 2014 11:47:41 GMT -5
Hah! You got me by a few decades! I remember watching Bob Hope specials though ... "A few decades." True, but you could have at least softened the blow by saying "years." You could have picked up "Thanks for the memories" from virtually anything Hope did after 1938, I think. And no, I'm not that old. My bad, and my sincerest apologies. I did not mean to imply you were that old. Remember, we are like a fine wine, or situational bourbon, WE'VE GOTTEN BETTER WITH AGE, NOT WORSE!
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Post by gary on Jun 20, 2014 11:56:22 GMT -5
"A few decades." True, but you could have at least softened the blow by saying "years." You could have picked up "Thanks for the memories" from virtually anything Hope did after 1938, I think. And no, I'm not that old. My bad, and my sincerest apologies. I did not mean to imply you were that old. Remember, we are like a fine wine, or situational bourbon, WE'VE GOTTEN BETTER WITH AGE, NOT WORSE! I wasn't referring to your statement when I said I was not that old. I was referring to my own reference to 1938. I cop to being old enough to remember Hope. So no need to apologize.
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Post by bartleby on Jun 20, 2014 14:05:23 GMT -5
Actually an ALJ was fired for non-productivity in the last year. Also, Telework was not a privilege, but a mandate from the people that brought us the Clean Air Act and Social Security was mandated to allow as many people to Telework that could do so and continue to do their work successfully. Devil Dog, good idea, but I can do 15 reversals in the time it takes to do 5 denials, so do you think I will pay more than I deny? Not me of course, but some schmuck without morals? Plus, very few reversals come back. Hey, I think you got it. Want to be Commissioner?
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Post by funkyodar on Jun 20, 2014 15:53:47 GMT -5
Adding a little more perspective....
As you may know, they are currently hiring for new writers at the new NCAC in Baltimore. According to good sources, they have been inundated with applications. And from recent grads of the top tier law schools; UVA, Harvard, Duke, etc.
That's right. Folks that, in the past, would have the pedigree degree, irregardless of where they placed in their class, to have prestigious firms fighting over them.
Now they are fighting for GS 11 jobs. In the gov. In a nonunion environment meaning they will work in cubicle farms. With no longer the hope that they can use the position to springboard to ALJ. And did I mention they have to live and work in Baltimore?
And we select few that have an opportunity to be ALJs have questions on whether private practice is a better gig?
Employment in the legal sector is a buyer's market right now folks. Employers everywhere expect better work product, more work product, on quicker timetables and to get it cheaper than ever before. And they know if an employee gets upset about those demands, there are scores more attorneys out there that would take the job in a heartbeat.
There are what, 1450+ ssa aljs? And when this app period opened somewhere near 6000 attorneys applied. Is the job worth it? Numbers dont lie.
This job pays over $160 k a year (in time), has excellent med, dental, life, good leave, the ability to do credit time, and the best job security of most any position a lawyer can get. And top it all off with the fact that you can do your job and go home at night and forget about it.
So you get micromanaged. Maybe held out as an example for a minor infraction. Perhaps some high school educated group sup doesnt show you the respect or deference you think you deserve. Maybe they even keep harping for you to do more, quicker and with less.
So what. Every single job I have ever had included all those detriments and had few or none of the benefits listed before.
The job isnt what it used to be. No job is. Especially in the legal sector. But, one real danger of gov work is a loss of perspective. You get really comfortable with what you have and often forget what its like not to have it. Or that the vast majority in the private sector dont.
The wold has changed. If you have a job making over 150k a year, with benefits, with over a month of leave and paid holidays, that you can complete in less than 50 to 60 hours a week, and still has a GUARANTEED PENSION (not even including the TSP with employer matching)....well, in the world of today you are pretty much in the wealthy minority. It would take a whole lot more than the complaints about the job I've read here to make me consider not taking the job.
Again, all just my opinion from my own perspective.
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Post by bartleby on Jun 20, 2014 15:55:57 GMT -5
Subject: We are ODAR - ODAR's Vision Plan as provided to Management
Thanks to Miami ODAR AFGE Steward Lorraine Boone
To all AFGE Bargaining Unit Employees in ODAR:
As a follow-up to my June 10th e-mail which reported future initiatives and structural changes for ODAR, we have recently been informed by several management officials who have attended their regional meetings that the following was told to them which confirms the information we have been receiving:
(1) All newly hired decision writers and SCTs will be assigned to centralized units. (2) There will be no replacement of staffing within a hearing office unless absolutely critical. (3) Once attrition has reduced the personnel within a hearing office to approximately 50-60% of its original allocated staffing, the employees and ALJs will be co-located with a field office. (4) Support staff to ALJ ratio of 4.5 to 1 will gradually be reduced to 1.5 to 1. (5) ODAR intends to open more centralized units within the next 12 months for decision writers and case pullers. (6) Unless absolutely necessary, there will be no promotional opportunities for support staff within hearing offices. (7) There will be a substantial reduction of management officials within hearing offices and when relocated to a field office, there may not be an on site ODAR manager, but some type of Area Director. (8) Finally, it was reported that ODAR believes the centralized units are more efficient and productive.
Management has been told that several of the above items are currently being done and that ODAR’s vision plan will gradually roll out over the next 8-10 years which tends to suggest that in 2025, there will be very few stand-alone hearing offices with more than 4 or 5 ALJs and an equal number of support staff.
In closing, I truly believe you must rally your employees to take a plethora of actions to save their jobs and careers. This union, although we are aggressively attempting to stop or modify ODAR’s vision plan, the train is rolling down the track and is increasing in speed.
James E. Marshall President, AFGE Council 215
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 18:06:20 GMT -5
Coming to work here and leaving in a year or two for whatever reason will not look good on your resume. Please put due consideration into this matter and you owe it to yourself to gather as much information as possible. This Agency is in flux and nobody knows what will be next. When you are a solo attorney, we don't have RESUMEs that matters to anyone. You simply take down your law license off the wall and move to the next town, just like a gun slinger in the old west. "Will not look good on your resume" ... don't know what world you have lived in the last century, but I can stand on my own two feet and make a living before and after ODAR.
I agree with a lot of what you say about ODAR just from your inside perspective, but "us big boys and girls" don't need to sweat a loss of a government job to make a living with a law license. IMHO
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Post by hopefalj on Jun 20, 2014 18:18:29 GMT -5
Actually an ALJ was fired for non-productivity in the last year. Also, Telework was not a privilege, but a mandate from the people that brought us the Clean Air Act and Social Security was mandated to allow as many people to Telework that could do so and continue to do their work successfully. Devil Dog, good idea, but I can do 15 reversals in the time it takes to do 5 denials, so do you think I will pay more than I deny? Not me of course, but some schmuck without morals? Plus, very few reversals come back. Hey, I think you got it. Want to be Commissioner? If you're referring to Shapiro, he got fired for failing to do his job even somewhat adequately. One symptom of that was his failure to produce more than 10-12 decisions per month. I've had judges in my office get out just over 300 decisions without any significant repercussions. Now if you want to talk about the blind eye turned towards judges that fail to do their job but manage to pump out 500+ decisions per year without anyone questioning what the heck they're doing, I'm sure we'd likely agree on that topic.
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