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Post by mamaru on Nov 7, 2014 8:38:58 GMT -5
Also, in the past, an ALJ wanting a transfer badly enough to do so could go to a NHC for a few months. As a management ALJ, the judge would then be eligible to go to the top of the transfer list for a desired location. Accepting an NHC position used to be the functional equivalent of clicking your heels together to get back home. I wasn't around at the time, but it is my understanding that this practice was an incentive designed to attract experienced judges to the NHC's when they opened. Now NHC judges also have to stay in place for two years prior to transferring. The revolving door that once existed has been closed.
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Post by redryder on Nov 7, 2014 9:12:12 GMT -5
Please, please heed the advice given regarding this topic. It cannot be stressed enough that any candidate for an ALJ slot should not rely on the experiences of those of us hired pre-2012 on the issue of transfers. When the big hires rolled out in 2008, there had been no significant hiring of replacement judges for many years. There were openings in all regions and almost all offices. The existing ALJ corps was older as well. But that is not the situation now. A significant number of judges were hired under the old process and they are younger. Most have gotten transfers to the offices where they want to be and have no intention of moving. I have seen it happen in my own office. Every time there was hiring, the office would receive 3 to 4 new judges. Within a year or so, maybe one was left, but in many instances all transferred out. Now, in the last old cert hirings, we received 5 judges in two different hirings. Two left and the office has only 1 vacancy right now. While the door may still be revolving, it is definitely turning more slowly for those who want to go elsewhere.
And those who leave are not going because it is a bad office. In fact, everyone who has left tells us how great it was to work there. They just wanted to be closer to family or in a larger city. Rural living was not to their liking.
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wylaw
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Post by wylaw on Nov 7, 2014 10:35:29 GMT -5
I am trying to understand how long transfers are frozen because a "cert is open"? By example, Richmond, VA was on the 1st cert, but it is not on the 2nd cert. Thus, assuming an ALJ has been employed 91 days and is on the transfer list to Richmond, is the ALJ eligible for a transfer? If not is the Richmond cert still somehow open?
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Post by funkyodar on Nov 7, 2014 10:42:40 GMT -5
I suspect Richmond is closed as no one has reported getting a cert email for it. Thus, transfers should be open. Just my guess though.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Nov 7, 2014 10:53:39 GMT -5
Solid post, PapaJudge. And yes, that line deserves both italics and underlining. My wife and I have had some pretty intense discussions about the ramifications of this assignment process. We've calculated cost of living differential, state income taxes, apartment rentals, air travel fees/routes/times, etc. We've reached an agreement and an understanding of exactly what will be involved and both committed to it, for each and every city that I will accept on this cert.
I see some posts on this board that make me shudder--people who are on this cert but you can tell haven't really explored all the facets of what is involved, based upon the questions they are asking. If you think this might be you, please heed PapaJudge's advice and DIG into it this weekend with your spouse and family!
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Post by gary on Nov 7, 2014 10:55:24 GMT -5
Great advice Sandi.
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Post by mamaru on Nov 7, 2014 11:01:01 GMT -5
Please, please heed the advice given regarding this topic. It cannot be stressed enough that any candidate for an ALJ slot should not rely on the experiences of those of us hired pre-2012 on the issue of transfers. When the big hires rolled out in 2008, there had been no significant hiring of replacement judges for many years. There were openings in all regions and almost all offices. The existing ALJ corps was older as well. But that is not the situation now. A significant number of judges were hired under the old process and they are younger. Most have gotten transfers to the offices where they want to be and have no intention of moving. I have seen it happen in my own office. Every time there was hiring, the office would receive 3 to 4 new judges. Within a year or so, maybe one was left, but in many instances all transferred out. Now, in the last old cert hirings, we received 5 judges in two different hirings. Two left and the office has only 1 vacancy right now. While the door may still be revolving, it is definitely turning more slowly for those who want to go elsewhere. And those who leave are not going because it is a bad office. In fact, everyone who has left tells us how great it was to work there. They just wanted to be closer to family or in a larger city. Rural living was not to their liking. I agree - what I meant was that the NHC as a revolving door constantly in motion no longer works as an efficient way to get from point A to point B via a brief stint at the NHC. It still works, but it's harder to get to an NHC and you have to wait two years to leave. Redryder is correct in that the revolving door still works with regard to all transfers (including via the NHC), but it has slowed down.
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Post by luckylady2 on Nov 7, 2014 11:50:42 GMT -5
Now the real question: who gets priority for openings? A sitting ALJ or a new applicant? The sitting ALJ on the transfer list will get priority to that city opening before a new applicant. This only make sense as the sitting ALJ is already a federal employee with the agency. The new applicant is not yet an employee. Papa Judge & Sandi - I absolutely agree about the serious conversations and planning over city selection. I also don't think I'm overly pessimistic about transfers, but I do think that the old "take any city offered and in 90 days you'll be in your dream city" philosophy was slightly misguided from the start and is now more likely to be an anomaly than the common experience. ODAR's soliciting of applicant preferences and trying to accomodate them, to my mind, really signals a different attitude about transfers on its part, too. My question is whether the part I've quoted above is still true if they are officially freezing transfers once a cert has been requested for a city. Although the transfer list is still worked before the hire - essentially preferring existing judges to applicants before the cert is pulled, it seems to me that the freezing for the cert is essentially holding the position open for a new hire over any judge that comes along later (either because he/she was not on the list at the time or may have passed on the transfer offer, but changed his/her mind or circumstances later). Add in Funky's info that some certs are being held open across multiple anticipated hires (admittedly an unusual situation because there are so many hires to be accomplished this year), at least for this set of hires, once the cert is pulled the applicants are being given preference over the existing judges as long as the cert is open. The corollary of that is, that once the city is released to transfers again, it is less likely that a judge who has been with ODAR for 90 days will rocket to the top of a more desirable city. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying that the process favors it much less than in the past.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 11:53:39 GMT -5
Once I had received my cert, my duaghter sat down with me and she created an excel spreadsheet. In about 8 hours, we came up with several factors of livability: airfares, airflight schedules, ODAR office locale, apartment availability/desirability, costs of living, whether or not I would need a car, and an overall opinion as to the livability of the specific city. (Google earth was extremely helpful as you could literally "walk around" the ODAR locations, apartments and surrounding areas to view the streets, city, etc.) She then assigned a points ranking for each factor. We then went through each city, one by one, weighing all factors and then ranked the cities in preference from high to low. We then had a family meeting and ended up knocking several low ranking cities off my list (and am glad I did) resulting in a list we all agreed that were viable cities.
Surprisingly a couple of the larger US cities on my GAL that on their face would seem to be desirable were ranked very low or knocked off my GAL. This was because they had dismal airflight schedules that regardless of how liveable/likeable the city was itself, flights in and out of the city were either non-existent or horribly expensive. Always check the airfares/flights for your GALs; you do not want to end up trapped in a city that you may like in itself, but you cannot afford to or cannot physically come and go as desired.
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mkt
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Post by mkt on Nov 7, 2014 13:30:59 GMT -5
Many many thanks for the warm welcome and the wealth of helpful information. It is much appreciated. My follow up question concerns the old topic of sitting out a cert if the cities are no longer feasible but I'll do another thread so it will be easier for others with the same concern to find. May I just say that the knowledge of those who contributed to this post is matched only by their generosity in sharing it! Thanks again, everyone.
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Post by Ace Midnight on Nov 7, 2014 13:53:12 GMT -5
Once I had received my cert, my duaghter sat down with me and she created an excel spreadsheet. In about 8 hours, we came up with several factors of livability: airfares, airflight schedules, ODAR office locale, apartment availability/desirability, costs of living, whether or not I would need a car, and an overall opinion as to the livability of the specific city. (Google earth was extremely helpful as you could literally "walk around" the ODAR locations, apartments and surrounding areas to view the streets, city, etc.) She then assigned a points ranking for each factor. We then went through each city, one by one, weighing all factors and then ranked the cities in preference from high to low. We then had a family meeting and ended up knocking several low ranking cities off my list (and am glad I did) resulting in a list we all agreed that were viable cities. Surprisingly a couple of the larger US cities on my GAL that on their face would seem to be desirable were ranked very low or knocked off my GAL. This was because they had dismal airflight schedules that regardless of how liveable/likeable the city was itself, flights in and out of the city were either non-existent or horribly expensive. Always check the airfares/flights for your GALs; you do not want to end up trapped in a city that you may like in itself, but you cannot afford to or cannot physically come and go as desired. Papa - no offense, but why are you in this process? Shouldn't you and your daughter be curing cancer or solving the world's food or energy problem? I drew a mental circle in my mind, roughly 1 day's drive from home - cut all the obvious ones outside, opted in 2 or 3 desireable, ranked them nearest to furthest - 1 through (we'll just say 15 for our purposes here), print, scan, boom, done. Give or take 10 minutes.
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Post by cheesy on Nov 25, 2014 4:47:08 GMT -5
Spam bumpover.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 11:08:19 GMT -5
FYI - we had a transfer to our office last month - he was 9th on the list out of 15 total listed. Obviously 8 passed up on the chance to move here. If you are patient, it can happen.
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Post by sealaw90 on Dec 18, 2014 11:20:10 GMT -5
FYI - we had a transfer to our office last month - he was 9th on the list out of 15 total listed. Obviously 8 passed up on the chance to move here. If you are patient, it can happen. Are you in an office that is not on the second set of certificates for new ALJS? We have heard that the 43 cities that are in play for this second set of certificates are 'frozen' for transferees.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 11:44:56 GMT -5
I have no idea. I havent read this forum since 2008 But I want a HOCALJ position in Jacksonville or relo so I'M BACK ON BABY! I'm also happy to help any soon to be ALJs with the transition. I love the job. It's the best ever!
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Post by sealaw90 on Dec 18, 2014 13:08:26 GMT -5
Well alright, and welcome back! Glad you love the job. We will pick your brain if you don't mind, all we ask is if you can share any intel, like you did this morning, as it always helps to paint a more complete picture of what is going on. Or at least it makes us think we have a more complete picture of what's going on!
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Post by patiently on Dec 18, 2014 17:12:37 GMT -5
I for one was encouraged by management's suggestion that ALJs may, in the future (near future?), be placed in in state agency buildings or other "pods" separate from the traditional hearing office. With the push to hire all these ALJs, it really seems like that will be something they have to explore. We just don't have the physical space in all these hearing offices to accomodate the number of judges they really need to tackle the caseload. More potential locations = more possibilities for being closer to home. At a minimum, expanded telecommuting to accomodate the hoteling and shared workstations I recently answered a survey about seems to be in the cards.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Dec 18, 2014 18:05:25 GMT -5
I for one was encouraged by management's suggestion that ALJs may, in the future (near future?), be placed in in state agency buildings or other "pods" separate from the traditional hearing office. With the push to hire all these ALJs, it really seems like that will be something they have to explore. We just don't have the physical space in all these hearing offices to accomodate the number of judges they really need to tackle the caseload. More potential locations = more possibilities for being closer to home. At a minimum, expanded telecommuting to accomodate the hoteling and shared workstations I recently answered a survey about seems to be in the cards. This (hoteling, office sharing etc.) is definitely something the agency is considering. The surveys went to all staff including the case techs and writers. Anything they can do to cut costs is going to benefit the public/ taxpayers. The days of having individual offices for all the photos and personal items may be coming to a close in some areas and for some positions. Nothing is in stone yet, but if I have a chance to work at home on a more frequent basis in exchange for sharing an office space, I am IN! But for now, it appears that with all the retirements and transfers, there are enough ALJ offices in most places. That may not be the case in some areas though, or they would not be considering it for ALJs. Maybe they can work a deal with the unions to allow ALJs to house in "writer" designated offices to help get some ALJs on board in places where there are no ALJ offices available, but where they need more judges.
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Post by somethingbrewing on Dec 18, 2014 18:06:42 GMT -5
I think it is important that potential ALJs understand how the transfer process works, but also understand in a meaningful way that there is some randomness to the process, meaning you can't "guess" in any way as to how long it will take you to transfer. Building off of Funky's "hypothetical" of ALJs looking to transfer, you could be a new ALJ who goes right to #1 on a transfer list for your own little slice of Crapland, yet if the timing isn't right, you could be waiting many months to transfer. I know of at least two ALJs who presently have been waiting for transfers for almost 2 1/2 years to smaller midwestern/southern cities that would not be deemed popular destinations and have always had short transfer lists (and each ALJ was targeting at least 2 cities close to home). Conversely, there are ALJs from the most recent hiring class (who just went on the transfer list a few days before Thanksgiving) who are already getting transfer offers. Also keep in mind that, while candidates are being allowed to rank cities, many new ALJs are being sent to cities low down on their lists, let's say hypothetically places like Milwaukee, Fresno, Mount Pleasant, or Toledo, even when those cities weren't even in the top 10 of their rankings and slots in cities close to home weren't even filled. So understand when selecting and ranking your cities that (1) you could end up at ANY of those cities you keep on your list, and (2) you could be there for years if the timing doesn't work out for you. So you should be prepared to go to any city on your list for an extended period (with all the hassles and difficulties that entails), and then be grateful if you get home sooner.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 16:57:20 GMT -5
I liked the new internal letter from Judge Bice regarding transfer lists. So helpful to find where you are on the list from the DART menu.
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