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Post by wingnut on Sept 7, 2015 11:58:12 GMT -5
Thank you!
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Post by hapi2balj on Sept 7, 2015 20:09:28 GMT -5
I think there's a couple of things going on here. You made several SSA certs for a number of cities from your GAL. SSA asks you to rank them and even cross out a few. Let's. Say you rank the top 10 cities you really want SSA to consider you for, but you cross out the other cities. As to the question of whether you are banned from those cities forevermore, it depends on the agency. For OPM, they don't know that you crossed them off when SSA asked you to rank them, so unless SSA tells OPM about this, OPM will continue to consider you a candidate for those cities. For SSA, I admit that I have no idea of what notes they keep on us from cert to cert, but I do know this: if you rank a city to be considered for and you get an offer but need to decline THAT city only, SSA will no longer consider you for that city for the life of the register (not sure how a refresh effects this). I know 2 folks who this happened. Happily they were contacted for other cities on future certs. Hope this helps. I could have appended this inquiry to a number of posts but sealaw, you are the lucky winner Admittedly, I may be missing some GAL basics, but riddle me this - if I understand correctly, in order to "make a cert," I have to be one of the top three scoring candidates (translation, score = NOR) who has advised of willingness to serve in a given location. Therefore, since it appears that a large number of register candidates have a wide open GAL, and since there are many folks on the register, wouldn't it seem highly unlikely that anyone with a small GAL would ever make the top 3? Obviously not impossible, but even more than highly unlikely perhaps? My current GAL is three, count 'em, three, and for what it may be worth (maybe not much) I'm quite sure none of them would be considered popular locations - though none of them are the ones typically named as Crapland's finest.
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Post by luckylady2 on Sept 7, 2015 20:27:39 GMT -5
No, Hope2b - OPM returns enough names on the city certs so that there will be at least 3 names left after the picking and choosing goes on. So if Candidate A is a highest scorer of all and 4 of his cities are certed, he will be in the top 3 on all 4 cities. If he accepts a position for City 1, his name comes off the certs for Cities 2, 3, & 4, and the next candidates move up. So the order in which the candidates are chosen matters a lot, and ODAR uses this to get to candidates it wants. So your 1st 3 hires could knock out the top 3 for a whole bunch of cities and have others move up. Then there is the veterans preferences, and the rule that once a candidate has been given 3 bona fide considerations, ODAR need not consider them again. So it takes many more than 3 candidates to assure that once the picking process has begun, there will still be at least 3 candidates available for the last city.
And actually, in this latest (March 2013 application) incarnation of the Register, there's a larger percentage of outsiders than in the past and quite a few more with small GALs. ODAR is lobbying OPM for a GAL expansion; we believe this is because it feels there are insufficient numbers of candidates for some of the cities it is trying to fill.
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Post by sealaw90 on Sept 7, 2015 21:46:39 GMT -5
What luckylady said.
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Post by Gaidin on Sept 8, 2015 8:39:01 GMT -5
There might or might not be a really swell GAL expansion poll coming later in the week.
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Post by gary on Sept 8, 2015 8:42:16 GMT -5
There might or might not be a really swell GAL expansion poll coming later in the week. I know this is reliable intel because Gaidin has an excellent source in pollster nation.
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Post by Gaidin on Sept 9, 2015 15:25:08 GMT -5
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Post by wingnut on Sept 9, 2015 17:26:34 GMT -5
Gaiden, that is funny. I drove across country this summer and I had to laugh when I saw signs for towns I never would have heard of except for random appearances on certs. I would think, "Wow, that's where [____] is!" Or maybe I had heard of someplace in a song. The whole process is a bit surreal.
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Post by cheesy on Sept 9, 2015 20:22:15 GMT -5
Gaiden, that is funny. I drove across country this summer and I had to laugh when I saw signs for towns I never would have heard of except for random appearances on certs. I would think, "Wow, that's where [____] is!" Or maybe I had heard of someplace in a song. The whole process is a bit surreal. Every fifth grader should be required to submit a GAL.
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Post by sealaw90 on Sept 10, 2015 9:58:54 GMT -5
Gaiden, that is funny. I drove across country this summer and I had to laugh when I saw signs for towns I never would have heard of except for random appearances on certs. I would think, "Wow, that's where [____] is!" Or maybe I had heard of someplace in a song. The whole process is a bit surreal. Every fifth grader should be required to submit a GAL. Map a GAL, map. That's a better use of their time!
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Post by gary on Sept 10, 2015 10:11:26 GMT -5
Gaiden, that is funny. I drove across country this summer and I had to laugh when I saw signs for towns I never would have heard of except for random appearances on certs. I would think, "Wow, that's where [____] is!" Or maybe I had heard of someplace in a song. The whole process is a bit surreal. Every fifth grader should be required to submit a GAL. They'll just be out of luck if they forget to include the playground. But they'll be able to add it to their GAL the next time applications are accepted for 5th grade.
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Post by hapi2balj on Sept 10, 2015 18:58:55 GMT -5
No, Hope2b - OPM returns enough names on the city certs so that there will be at least 3 names left after the picking and choosing goes on. So if Candidate A is a highest scorer of all and 4 of his cities are certed, he will be in the top 3 on all 4 cities. If he accepts a position for City 1, his name comes off the certs for Cities 2, 3, & 4, and the next candidates move up. So the order in which the candidates are chosen matters a lot, and ODAR uses this to get to candidates it wants. So your 1st 3 hires could knock out the top 3 for a whole bunch of cities and have others move up. Then there is the veterans preferences, and the rule that once a candidate has been given 3 bona fide considerations, ODAR need not consider them again. So it takes many more than 3 candidates to assure that once the picking process has begun, there will still be at least 3 candidates available for the last city. And actually, in this latest (March 2013 application) incarnation of the Register, there's a larger percentage of outsiders than in the past and quite a few more with small GALs. ODAR is lobbying OPM for a GAL expansion; we believe this is because it feels there are insufficient numbers of candidates for some of the cities it is trying to fill. Very much appreciate the clarification, Luckylady (thanks to you also, Sealaw)! So, there could be any number of people on a given cert, depending, or so it sounds. Is one aware of his/her ranking on the cert, and when it changes? Also, is anyone out there willing to hazard a guess on which cities OPM might consider itself to have insufficient numbers of candidates? Are we talking the usual suspects, Mt. Pleasant, Middlesboro, Tupelo, Cincy? Or others?
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Post by luckylady2 on Sept 10, 2015 19:14:29 GMT -5
You're welcome. We know that OPM refers in order of NOR score, and it will send more than 3, and somewhere along earlier in this Register, SSA was unhappy that OPM was not sending enough names per cert, and that seems to have improved. No, you never know where you rank or what numbers are sent.
EXCEPT - and this is a big one - as Pixie says, the NORs aren't as important to SSA as they are to OPM. So OPM and the regs speak of scores, and SSA is more concerned with the people that it is hiring while it follows those regs. So it's never just a straight mathematical or mechanical process.
We can all guess at the insufficient number cities, and the trending down of the NORs as we go along confirms this. Insiders with far more experience than me can give much more reliable info on which cities.
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Post by phoenixrakkasan on Sept 10, 2015 19:28:22 GMT -5
If you are on a cert, there is a chance. That is that is needed.
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Post by february on Sept 14, 2015 14:52:48 GMT -5
I know any updates almost certainly would have been posted here already, but I just thought I would check in to see if anyone has heard any more confirmation that there will be a GAL expansion and, if so, when it might happen. I'll even take unsubstantiated rumors!
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Post by anotherfed on Sept 14, 2015 15:27:30 GMT -5
No, Hope2b - OPM returns enough names on the city certs so that there will be at least 3 names left after the picking and choosing goes on. So if Candidate A is a highest scorer of all and 4 of his cities are certed, he will be in the top 3 on all 4 cities. If he accepts a position for City 1, his name comes off the certs for Cities 2, 3, & 4, and the next candidates move up. So the order in which the candidates are chosen matters a lot, and ODAR uses this to get to candidates it wants. So your 1st 3 hires could knock out the top 3 for a whole bunch of cities and have others move up. Then there is the veterans preferences, and the rule that once a candidate has been given 3 bona fide considerations, ODAR need not consider them again. So it takes many more than 3 candidates to assure that once the picking process has begun, there will still be at least 3 candidates available for the last city. And actually, in this latest (March 2013 application) incarnation of the Register, there's a larger percentage of outsiders than in the past and quite a few more with small GALs. ODAR is lobbying OPM for a GAL expansion; we believe this is because it feels there are insufficient numbers of candidates for some of the cities it is trying to fill. Here's a question: What if Candidate A declines an offer for City 1? Does he then continue to block cities 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5?
In the past, there was one offer per cert: if you declined, they would skip you and move on to the next guy on the list and you would have to wait for the next cert. If that principle is being applied in the multiple city cert process, that could explain why ODAR has been having such small classes of new hires. I imagine Bob has a list of hires, to be made in a specific order because of the cascade effect from each single hire. I doubt there is built-in flexibility to reshuffle the list if Candidate A would accept for City 2 but not City 1 (there are simply too many permutations). So Bob would probably skip over Cities 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, and go on to City 6. Therefore, a single decline could prevent many hires.
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Post by Gaidin on Sept 14, 2015 15:42:21 GMT -5
No, Hope2b - OPM returns enough names on the city certs so that there will be at least 3 names left after the picking and choosing goes on. So if Candidate A is a highest scorer of all and 4 of his cities are certed, he will be in the top 3 on all 4 cities. If he accepts a position for City 1, his name comes off the certs for Cities 2, 3, & 4, and the next candidates move up. So the order in which the candidates are chosen matters a lot, and ODAR uses this to get to candidates it wants. So your 1st 3 hires could knock out the top 3 for a whole bunch of cities and have others move up. Then there is the veterans preferences, and the rule that once a candidate has been given 3 bona fide considerations, ODAR need not consider them again. So it takes many more than 3 candidates to assure that once the picking process has begun, there will still be at least 3 candidates available for the last city. And actually, in this latest (March 2013 application) incarnation of the Register, there's a larger percentage of outsiders than in the past and quite a few more with small GALs. ODAR is lobbying OPM for a GAL expansion; we believe this is because it feels there are insufficient numbers of candidates for some of the cities it is trying to fill. Here's a question: What if Candidate A declines an offer for City 1? Does he then continue to block cities 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5?
In the past, there was one offer per cert: if you declined, they would skip you and move on to the next guy on the list and you would have to wait for the next cert. If that principle is being applied in the multiple city cert process, that could explain why ODAR has been having such small classes of new hires. I imagine Bob has a list of hires, to be made in a specific order because of the cascade effect from each single hire. I doubt there is built-in flexibility to reshuffle the list if Candidate A would accept for City 2 but not City 1 (there are simply too many permutations). So Bob would probably skip over Cities 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, and go on to City 6. Therefore, a single decline could prevent many hires.
Woah. I have had some thoughts about what the flow chart Bob and Melinda follow looks like but I never thought about it that way.
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Post by anotherfed on Sept 14, 2015 17:31:30 GMT -5
Here's a question: What if Candidate A declines an offer for City 1? Does he then continue to block cities 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5?
In the past, there was one offer per cert: if you declined, they would skip you and move on to the next guy on the list and you would have to wait for the next cert. If that principle is being applied in the multiple city cert process, that could explain why ODAR has been having such small classes of new hires. I imagine Bob has a list of hires, to be made in a specific order because of the cascade effect from each single hire. I doubt there is built-in flexibility to reshuffle the list if Candidate A would accept for City 2 but not City 1 (there are simply too many permutations). So Bob would probably skip over Cities 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, and go on to City 6. Therefore, a single decline could prevent many hires.
Woah. I have had some thoughts about what the flow chart Bob and Melinda follow looks like but I never thought about it that way. Instead of "flowchart" think "decision tree," where one negative blocks 4 outcomes.
If A = Y, then B, C, D, and E.
If A = N, then stop.
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Post by luckylady2 on Sept 14, 2015 18:11:26 GMT -5
The permutations get totally mind-boggling when you consider that at each step there could be an alternate in the top 3 that's ok anyway OR Candidate A's presence blocks the one they want to get to for the other cities. Each time someone waits till the offer to decline, the entire chessboard can change or only a few pieces.
I understand that a declination-at-offer might be a necessity for some, but there is a certain gamesmanship to it all caused by the OPM rules. Someone might not be able to go to City 1 right now, but doesn't want to strike it when the cert email comes out, because they don't want to lose it forever (till the end of this Register). So the candidate leaves it in the I'll Accept List, hoping that if an offer comes, it won't be for City 1.
That's the only sense I can make out of the scenario where Candidate answers the cert email, "yes, I'll go there," and then declines when the offer comes a month or so later.
And the worst part? OPM rules give Candidate A TWO declines before he or she is removed from the Register!
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Post by litig8tor on Sept 14, 2015 20:04:20 GMT -5
From a past thread, I thought declining two offers resulted in being suspended from the register for one year rather than being removed. Is that right? Beancounter: The following is from the original announcement in 2013 for the ALJ register application process: Declination of Job Offers: If you decline two (2) job offers you will be suspended from the ALJ register for a period of one (1) year or until the register is terminated, whichever comes first. If after one (1) year you wish to have your name returned to the ALJ register, you must submit your request in writing to the ALJ email address at: aljapplication@opm.gov. Your request to end your suspension and have your name returned to the register will be accepted as long as the register on which you were placed has not been terminated, and you continue to satisfy the licensure requirement."
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