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Post by Gaidin on Sept 10, 2015 13:01:16 GMT -5
First, I will not discuss the details of the interview at FC and I would remind everybody that reads here or posts here that it is impermissible on this Board to discuss the specifics of the interview itself.
Second, I am posting in a new thread because clearly this is a grievance that some folks want to air out.
Third, I wish the process was different in at least one respect. I still don't have the ALJ job.
Now onto the point of my post.
The process of receiving an NOR is not unlike the bar exam. Except I got a score. I have no idea how I did on the bar exam other than I achieved a passing score. I didn't accuse that process of lacking transparency. It was what it was.
I have applied for and been interviewed for dozens of jobs many of them attorney jobs. In not a single instance where I did not get the job did anyone ever tell me why they hired Jane Lawyer instead of me. This included private as well as public employers. It is becoming increasingly common not to even tell people that you hired somebody else or as the euphemism goes "went in another direction".
I have been on hiring committees and have interviewed dozens of attorneys, paralegals, and others for professional and non-professional jobs. In absolutely zero of those instances did we ever tell the unsuccessful candidates why we didn't hire them. I can remember one instance where we interviewed an attorney decided to hire somebody else instead and 6 months later decided we liked them enough we hired them after all. We sure didn't tell that guy why he wasn't hired the first time or why he was hired the second time.
Sometimes a person is extremely qualified but they aren't a good fit for your organization (I think several ALJs working at OMHA know this feeling) and so you hire someone else.
Sometimes someone is your third or fourth choice and it just takes a while to get down the list.
In a process like this we are competing against some truly amazing people with vast experience, training, and expertise. It is humbling to realize this but maybe we aren't that amazing by comparison. I once spoke to a first year law class at orientation. I told them that most of them had been in the top 10% academically their entire lives and for 90% of them that was no longer going to be true. Its a hard reality of law school and its an even more ego bruising reality of this process.
If someone doesn't want to continue the journey there is an easy way to stop participating. Just let OPM know you want off the merry go round. Our personal disappointment doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the process and it certainly doesn't make the process arbitrary. I honestly don't find the lack of transparency unusual or problematic.
It is what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 17:03:19 GMT -5
Hey Gaidin,
I'm just glad to be here!
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Post by lawmom90 on Sept 10, 2015 17:05:28 GMT -5
Hey Gaidin, I'm just glad to be here! I saw what you did there |
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Post by beenlurking on Sept 10, 2015 17:08:15 GMT -5
Ditto.
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Post by Gaidin on Sept 10, 2015 18:28:54 GMT -5
Hey Gaidin, I'm just glad to be here! Gold star |
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Post by phoenixrakkasan on Sept 10, 2015 18:41:40 GMT -5
All good things come to those who wait. There are going to be many opportunities. This is just the first full FY with respect to hiring. The marathon is just beginning. We all knew that there were going to be top applicants who would go first. Yet, the race is still open and many will be winners.
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Post by Justgladtobehere on Sept 10, 2015 18:48:20 GMT -5
Gaidin, sorry for your frustration. Don't see how trashing me is gonna help you, but I could be wrong. My experience is that I have had no problems with asking for and getting feedback when I did not get a certain job. I have found most people are helpful and kind.
My frustration is (and was, when I seemingly offended funkyodar) based on my perspective. Why get a score from OPM and then be passed over (maybe fairly, I concede) by those with lower scores? I do not assert that I am entitled to a job or even that I would be good at this one.
What I would have liked would have been to be able to ask questions in good faith and not be trashed for doing so.
Oh, well. No use beating a dead horse.
I hope you get the call!
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Post by Pixie on Sept 10, 2015 19:03:33 GMT -5
I don't see this as an argumentative post, so let's not start up the negativity again.
JGTBH: You need to know that the agency does not care that you received a high score from OPM. It uses its own criteria in determining the quality of the candidate it wants to hire. Many candidates get hung up on the fact that they have a high score, but were not selected by the agency. It really matters not to the agency what your score is. Pixie.
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Post by luckylady2 on Sept 10, 2015 19:05:18 GMT -5
When you say you were passed over for those with lower scores, I'm not sure how you know this so definitively. Unless you have every station in your GAL AND you know there's not any 5- or 10-pt vets with higher scores (including new vets that have come on since due to quarterly testing for the 10-pointers), etc, you actually don't know if you've been passed over or your score of 78 didn't make the top three yet for the cities on which you've certed.
AND I do want to give you due recognition for saying something encouraging to Gaidin.
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Post by gary on Sept 10, 2015 19:05:41 GMT -5
Hey Gaidin, I'm just glad to be here! I wish I'd said that. |
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Post by funkyodar on Sept 10, 2015 20:19:54 GMT -5
Gaidin, sorry for your frustration. Don't see how trashing me is gonna help you, but I could be wrong. My experience is that I have had no problems with asking for and getting feedback when I did not get a certain job. I have found most people are helpful and kind. My frustration is (and was, when I seemingly offended funkyodar) based on my perspective. Why get a score from OPM and then be passed over (maybe fairly, I concede) by those with lower scores? I do not assert that I am entitled to a job or even that I would be good at this one. What I would have liked would have been to be able to ask questions in good faith and not be trashed for doing so. Oh, well. No use beating a dead horse. I hope you get the call! Offending me is a quick but usually reprecussionless act. In thinking back to several of my last posts, perhaps I have been being a bit harsh of late. My frustration stems from seeing this agency miss out on hitting its hiring goals, not meeting a real need, while many I think would be excellent choices seemingly whither on the vine. But, my frustration is miniscule in comparison to those that are doing the withering. I don't know you from Adam, JGTBH. All I know is your posts and while those definitely rubbed me the wrong way, perhaps I should not have leapt into the fray with such abandon. You have a right to your frustration. Take it or leave it, but my advice to you would be to simply watch how you express it. Any anonymity you have here is quite fleeting and paper thin. Some of those you seem to disparage by pointing to their lower scores may well be not just your colleagues and some point in the future, but maybe your superiors by then. Odar needs many many new, good judges. Maybe you will be one of them sometime in the future. Good luck. |
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Post by lizdarcy on Sept 10, 2015 21:01:00 GMT -5
I don't see this as an argumentative post, so let's not start up the negativity again. JGTBH: You need to know that the agency does not care that you received a high score from OPM. It uses its own criteria in determining the quality of the candidate it wants to hire. Many candidates get hung up on the fact that they have a high score, but were not selected by the agency. It really matters not to the agency what your score is. Pixie. I wanted to add something to Pixie's post that sometimes isn't apparent -- that is, that the OPM testing and resulting scores are the gateway to a number of ALJ jobs, not just SSA ODAR. Although SSA hires most ALJs, the OPM exam is designed to test skills that might not be used at SSA but will be used at other agencies. The score fixes your position on the register. After that, each agency hires differently, looking for different criteria. I'm beginning to understand your question. I think you'd like to know why hires don't go in score order. What Pixie and I have written is the answer to that question. I also understand the greater frustration of seeing good people not picked up yet by SSA. I agree that this may have put an edge on communication in the past few weeks. I'm glad that we are hashing it out. I am uncomfortable when people are attacked personally on this board, especially for asking questions or venting. The first time I ever posted was to share a self-pitying whine about not making a cert (or something like that). Everyone was so kind and encouraging to me. That's why I stuck around. I hope we will all continue to do that and not gang up on someone for an unfortunate post. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 21:34:05 GMT -5
lizdarcy,
Well said! And Funky, as always, will take a fresh look at his prior comments and post as he did above (although if he had been a little faster last spring/early summer, I may not of been suspended for 7 days, but that almost forgotten, it still hurts, but almost forgotten!).
I hope JGTBH sticks around on this board and I have been guilty of attacking others personally also, but I NOW try my best to keep it as funny as possible while commenting one way or another as to hopefully not trigger a Board War.
I have an idea!! Gaidin, why don't you start a new tread (Pixie, can I spell or what?) about "Take a deep breath, pick yourself up, dust yourself off...? Sounds like fun to me!
Edit Note by Pixie: Well, I see you made the same "typo" above as you did the last time. The word is "thread," not "tread!" You'll get it, even Beale Streeters can do it; just keep trying. Pixie.
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Post by Pixie on Sept 10, 2015 21:46:31 GMT -5
JGTBH: You need to know that the agency does not care that you received a high score from OPM. It uses its own criteria in determining the quality of the candidate it wants to hire. Many candidates get hung up on the fact that they have a high score, but were not selected by the agency. It really matters not to the agency what your score is. Pixie. I really don't like to quote myself in a response, but I have had two PMs asking about this comment. It appears Lizdarcy understands, but many others may not. I didn't say scores are not important. What I said was, the agency does not use the OPM score to determine the quality of the candidate. It doesn't care what your score is, as it uses its own criteria. That doesn't mean the scores aren't important; they are extremely important, even at the agency level. But the agency doesn't use the score as a measure of the worth of the candidate. It has its own measure. That is my point. Pix. |
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Post by luckylady2 on Sept 10, 2015 21:59:37 GMT -5
And actually, JGTBH - if none of the cities in your GAL have come up on certs yet, OPM has not referred your name over to any agency; the agencies literally don't even know you exist yet. OPM will only refer you for the cities for which you indicated availability on your initial (March 2013) application. So if you have not been notified that your name has been referred and you have not interviewed with an agency yet, you are not being "passed over." Instead, your own indication of availability has kept you out of the game. If that is the case, you're in good company. There's many people on the Register with small GALs (geographic availability). The good news is that there is a possibility that OPM may allow candidates to change their GAL designations - something it has done in the past, but rarely.
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Post by ba on Sept 10, 2015 22:06:19 GMT -5
And actually, JGTBH - if none of the cities in your GAL have come up on certs yet, OPM has not referred your name over to any agency; the agencies literally don't even know you exist yet. OPM will only refer you for the cities for which you indicated availability on your initial (March 2013) application. So if you have not been notified that your name has been referred and you have not interviewed with an agency yet, you are not being "passed over." Instead, your own indication of availability has kept you out of the game. If that is the case, you're in good company. There's many people on the Register with small GALs (geographic availability). The good news is that there is a possibility that OPM may allow candidates to change their GAL designations - something it has done in the past, but rarely. Wait a minute... So this JGTBH hasn't even hit a cert yet and had an agency interview?!?!? Oh geez... |
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Post by luckylady2 on Sept 10, 2015 22:06:52 GMT -5
We don't know.
He hasn't mentioned it, and I was just covering bases on ways to be "passed over." His posts seem to stop with getting a NOR and don't mention an agency interview, I think.
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Post by Gaidin on Sept 10, 2015 22:08:30 GMT -5
Gaidin, sorry for your frustration. Don't see how trashing me is gonna help you, but I could be wrong. My experience is that I have had no problems with asking for and getting feedback when I did not get a certain job. I have found most people are helpful and kind. My frustration is (and was, when I seemingly offended funkyodar) based on my perspective. Why get a score from OPM and then be passed over (maybe fairly, I concede) by those with lower scores? I do not assert that I am entitled to a job or even that I would be good at this one. What I would have liked would have been to be able to ask questions in good faith and not be trashed for doing so. Oh, well. No use beating a dead horse. I hope you get the call! The reality is I am not trying to trash you or anybody else. I truly hope everyone finds happiness at the end of this rainbow. I just find your frequent posts that read as if you are the victim of a conspiracy because you are so much more deserving than anyone who is hired as offensive. Maybe that isn't your intent and maybe your just venting. While I don't find public negativity helpful some do. But why disparage others? Also why come into a thread designed to try to pick up everybody's mood and start trying to tear it down. I deliberately started this thread to give you and the other folks who wanted to argue process a place to come do that. I gave my own defense of the process in what I hoped was a non confrontational manner. Instead of coming over here and engaging in that discussion you continued to crap on a positive thread. This is why we can't have nice things. |
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Post by ba on Sept 10, 2015 22:16:19 GMT -5
Actually, LL2 I think you are right based on his prior post under a prior name in the 3rd cert thread: Just found the list of cities. Thanks! None of mine are on there. Do you think that is random or are they doing cities not listed on GAL by first cert applicants? Or something else? Looks like he may not have hit a cert with his GAL. Possibly such drama for really no reason. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 22:21:26 GMT -5
"This is why we can't have nice things."
That and Funky's attitude last spring/early summer! And thread is spelled t..h..r..e..a..d! I'm working hard on my spelling words today. tiger
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