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Post by mamaru on Nov 5, 2015 12:45:37 GMT -5
I agree with Mamaru. Simply assigning the work is not supervising the preparation of opinions. However, if you are actively involved in the skills development of a new writer--assigning the work, reviewing and critiquing the draft and then reviewing the final draft, you are certainly more involved in the preparation of opinions. In my office, I worked with the new writers and can tell you that for 4-6 months, I spent 50% of my day working with them. Another opportunity I was given was the opportunity to do all of the dismissals for the judges in my group, and I didn't just fill in the blanks in the DGS but actually offered some rationale in support of those conclusions. I also did the contact for unrepresented claimants who came into the hearing office for their hearings. The contact included explaining what was in the case file, who would be in the hearing and how a hearing was conducted, and going over the right to representation and the waivers. If I learned anything new in the contact about the claimant's condition, I passed that along to the judge prior to the hearing. So there are ways to keep doing legal work even when one is in the position of GS. It is a matter of taking care of your primary job--getting the cases ready for hearing/scheduled/written. And then creating opportunities for yourself to do other duties as assigned. Thanks RR, you made the point more eloquently than I, but the bottom line is that you may need to think outside the box to keep doing legal work if you become a GS. It's not automatic that everything you do on a day-to-day basis will count.
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Post by prescient on Nov 5, 2015 13:20:34 GMT -5
I agree with Mamaru. Simply assigning the work is not supervising the preparation of opinions. However, if you are actively involved in the skills development of a new writer--assigning the work, reviewing and critiquing the draft and then reviewing the final draft, you are certainly more involved in the preparation of opinions. In my office, I worked with the new writers and can tell you that for 4-6 months, I spent 50% of my day working with them. Another opportunity I was given was the opportunity to do all of the dismissals for the judges in my group, and I didn't just fill in the blanks in the DGS but actually offered some rationale in support of those conclusions. I also did the contact for unrepresented claimants who came into the hearing office for their hearings. The contact included explaining what was in the case file, who would be in the hearing and how a hearing was conducted, and going over the right to representation and the waivers. If I learned anything new in the contact about the claimant's condition, I passed that along to the judge prior to the hearing. So there are ways to keep doing legal work even when one is in the position of GS. It is a matter of taking care of your primary job--getting the cases ready for hearing/scheduled/written. And then creating opportunities for yourself to do other duties as assigned. Thanks RR, you made the point more eloquently than I, but the bottom line is that you may need to think outside the box to keep doing legal work if you become a GS. It's not automatic that everything you do on a day-to-day basis will count. Again, what you are able to do will vary tremendously upon your office. I have heard of offices where they have an attorney GS who does nothing but supervise the writers. In this scenario, it will be much easier to do the aforementioned activities which demonstrate legal work activity. But in the majority of offices, you will be supervising SCTs, who in my experience demand the vast majority of your day, with mundane activities, none of which could remotely be argued to be legal in nature.
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Post by christina on Nov 5, 2015 13:23:26 GMT -5
which goes back to the hod, i've worked with several and some would create legal opportunities for the GS while others may be less likely to do so.
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Post by mamaru on Nov 5, 2015 15:22:52 GMT -5
I also think it's going to be difficult for HO GS's to log time training new writers since they are not being hired in hearing offices. Our last new writer started four years ago and is now an ALJ!
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fedHL
New Member
Posts: 14
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Post by fedHL on Nov 9, 2015 6:52:17 GMT -5
I can also suggest that you become a volunteer government mediator. The Departmental Appeals Board through HHS offers free mediation certiciation courses for Fed employees and maintains the list of mediators. If you take the course and do a mediations there will be no question that you meet the 7-year bar. There have been more than a few of my colleagues who have been drawn to policy and regulation writing but who were not going to meet the 7-year mark if they left. While these were more senior folks who had more non-litigation experience outside Fed (that does not count in OPM speak) they were able to get on the registry (and one is a current ALJ) by supplementing their non-litigation or admin practice jobs with mediation.
Good luck and congrats on the GS promotion. I do not suggest changing jobs just to qualify for an ALJ position. There is no guarantee that any of us who are not current ALJs will ever be one. It's such a challenging path that I suggest making the best moves for your professional development and happiness. I have worked with many fellow senior attorneys in the "right" positions who have not been selected for the job. You can remain GS and shape your duties to be more compatible with the criteria, do pro bono or mediate. Please critically evaluate whether you will have regrets if you indeed find a more "suitable" position for ALJ experience but never get that call.
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Post by lizdarcy on Nov 9, 2015 8:26:43 GMT -5
I have not looked at the ALJ vacancy announcement since the spring of 2013. I seem to remember that mediation was on the list of activities that were not counted towards the requirement in the most recent application. It's been a long time and I could be remembering incorrectly. For those who might be affected, it would be a good idea to check, though.
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Post by mercury on Nov 9, 2015 10:34:54 GMT -5
I would still be very surprised if a job that is classified as a 1905 attorney with ODAR wouldn't count as practicing law.
Private sector attorneys spend some of their day supervising paralegals and other such work necessary for cases but that doesn't make them not practicing law "full time."
It will be many years until I apply for ALJ so I haven't seen the application, but does it actually require you to break down your time into percentages to describe applicable work experience? I just don't see how any attorney does this to reflect practicing law on such a tough definition 100% of the time. Most legal work is behind the scenes paperwork, even if it's stuff a paralegal would do.
I can't imagine OPM dinging a supervisory attorney because they don't have enough admin law "experience." But I haven't gone through the process yet.
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Post by Gaidin on Nov 9, 2015 10:49:17 GMT -5
I would still be very surprised if a job that is classified as a 1905 attorney with ODAR wouldn't count as practicing law. Private sector attorneys spend some of their day supervising paralegals and other such work necessary for cases but that doesn't make them not practicing law "full time." It will be many years until I apply for ALJ so I haven't seen the application, but does it actually require you to break down your time into percentages to describe applicable work experience? I just don't see how any attorney does this to reflect practicing law on such a tough definition 100% of the time. Most legal work is behind the scenes paperwork, even if it's stuff a paralegal would do. I can't imagine OPM dinging a supervisory attorney because they don't have enough admin law "experience." But I haven't gone through the process yet. When you apply you have to explain what percentage of your time you spend doing qualifying work. I had to deduct the percentage of time I spent supervising from my total time spent as a litigator/administrative law attorney.
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Post by rocco1 on Nov 9, 2015 10:57:34 GMT -5
I am a private sector attorney. I serve as a Part Time Magistrate Judge. Does serving as a judicial officer help in the legal experience requirements?
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Post by mercury on Nov 9, 2015 11:04:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation Gaidin. If that's how it's structured, it seems unnecessarily narrow. How does one account for direct supervision of attorneys performing legal work??
Perhaps OPM will change their procedures through 2022 due to the budget outline amendment.
Then again...
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Post by mamaru on Nov 9, 2015 12:52:21 GMT -5
I have not looked at the ALJ vacancy announcement since the spring of 2013. I seem to remember that mediation was on the list of activities that were not counted towards the requirement in the most recent application. It's been a long time and I could be remembering incorrectly. For those who might be affected, it would be a good idea to check, though. This is my recollection as well. I have experience in both arbitration and mediation and had to back out the time spent mediating. You don't need to be a lawyer to mediate or arbitrate so I am not sure why the distinction. Maybe because in mediation you are not conducting an evidentiary hearing and making a decision. OK - I stand corrected. I was probably misremembering an application for something else!
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Post by hopefalj on Nov 11, 2015 7:49:37 GMT -5
I have not looked at the ALJ vacancy announcement since the spring of 2013. I seem to remember that mediation was on the list of activities that were not counted towards the requirement in the most recent application. It's been a long time and I could be remembering incorrectly. For those who might be affected, it would be a good idea to check, though. This is my recollection as well. I have experience in both arbitration and mediation and had to back out the time spent mediating. You don't need to be a lawyer to mediate or arbitrate so I am not sure why the distinction. Maybe because in medication you are not conducting an evidentiary hearing and making a decision. Gary posted the requirements earlier, and mediation is expressly included in litigation and in administrative legal experience. What one feels comfortable claiming as qualifying legal experience is a personal choice, and in some cases, can be stretched to a significant degree. I would never ever suggest lying or making something up, but if you can argue you have legal experience with a straight face should you get called on it, then put it down. You're demonstrating this experience to a non-legal, GS-6 employee, not an attorney. It's hard to speak more on it without potentially crossing forbidden lines, but I don't think it's impossible or even impermissible to classify a lot of GS duties as qualifying legal experience per the announcement language even though any lawyer would likely roll their eyes if they read it. As lawyers, we all liberally construe terms when it suits our or our clients' needs, and we do it in front of other lawyers and judges. That's why I would apply the straight-faced test when completing my application were I a candidate again.
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Post by christina on Nov 11, 2015 8:08:30 GMT -5
also, put it in language a non-attorney understands. i think i made that mistake first time i applied, which was in 2009. that was more of a narrative.
this time, i punched up front, i have 7 years of QLE and here is how. reemphasized that point throughout the initial app we did in 2013.
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Post by onepingonly on Nov 11, 2015 9:36:54 GMT -5
OP, here's my two cents. Be the best Group Supervisor the agency has ever seen, for at least two years. Forget about that work counting toward your seven years. If you possibly can, get (approved) outside work (paid or volunteer) as a true litigator, like a Legal Aid lawyer defending juveniles. OPM is primarily looking for actual courtroom experience on either side of the bench. After two years as Group Sup, do something more directly involved with the judiciary. By my estimation, the trend at OPM is away from stretching a point to make judges of attorneys who have logged little time in the courtroom making (or hearing) arguments. The brass tacks mechanics of how to run a hearing efficiently take time to learn. The dais is not the place to start learning it. You would not enjoy being the most marginally qualified ALJ who ever squeaked by with a tortured interpretation of their resume. Kick butt in a bunch of jobs until, when you have your ALJ interview, you stand tall as the peer of the interviewers, with a ton of well-earned experience under your belt. And enjoy the journey at every step! Good luck!
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Post by christina on Nov 11, 2015 9:49:40 GMT -5
OP, here's my two cents. Be the best Group Supervisor the agency has ever seen, for at least two years. Forget about that work counting toward your seven years. If you possibly can, get (approved) outside work (paid or volunteer) as a true litigator, like a Legal Aid lawyer defending juveniles. OPM is primarily looking for actual courtroom experience on either side of the bench. After two years as Group Sup, do something more directly involved with the judiciary. By my estimation, the trend at OPM is away from stretching a point to make judges of attorneys who have logged little time in the courtroom making (or hearing) arguments. The brass tacks mechanics of how to run a hearing efficiently take time to learn. The dais is not the place to start learning it. You would not enjoy being the most marginally qualified ALJ who ever squeaked by with a tortured interpretation of their resume. Kick butt in a bunch of jobs until, when you have your ALJ interview, you stand tall as the peer of the interviewers, with a ton of well-earned experience under your belt. And enjoy the journey at every step! Good luck! incredible advice. SSA always appreciates an outstanding GS.
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Post by lizdarcy on Nov 11, 2015 10:06:11 GMT -5
Gary was right. I remembered the "M word" being in the middle of a list of non-qualifying experience. But it was a different M-word.
Non-Qualifying Experience: Experience involving cases with no formal hearing procedure and uncontested cases involving misdemeanors, probate, domestic relations, or tort matters is not qualifying. Listed below are some examples of types of positions which are not qualifying:
Claims Reviewer Clerk of Court Conferee Contracting Officer Insurance Adjuster Moderator Officer of any court not of record Rating Specialist State Unemployment Insurance Supervisor Law Professor
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Post by Ready-Now! on Nov 11, 2015 10:11:13 GMT -5
I have not looked at the ALJ vacancy announcement since the spring of 2013. I seem to remember that mediation was on the list of activities that were not counted towards the requirement in the most recent application. It's been a long time and I could be remembering incorrectly. For those who might be affected, it would be a good idea to check, though. This is my recollection as well. I have experience in both arbitration and mediation and had to back out the time spent mediating. You don't need to be a lawyer to mediate or arbitrate so I am not sure why the distinction. Maybe because in medication you are not conducting an evidentiary hearing and making a decision. I would agree that is the distinction. Arbitration is usually binding (final decision issued by arbitrator so to speak) while a result from mediation is more of a recommendation.
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Post by Gaidin on Nov 11, 2015 12:16:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure what a moderator is but please don't make me ever practice moderation.
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Post by gary on Nov 11, 2015 13:26:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure what a moderator is but please don't make me ever practice moderation. A moderator is someone who is at a debate so the participants have someone to blame.
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Post by Ready-Now! on Nov 11, 2015 13:29:20 GMT -5
I always thought a moderator was the ice in the bourbon.
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