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Post by auroraborealis on Feb 25, 2016 12:11:00 GMT -5
My reservation to just reapplying is that I initially didn't get thru after the SJT. At least an appeal keeps you alive and gives you the possibility of staying ahead of the new thousands of applicants. I'm really torn and hate the idea of having to choose, seems unfair.
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Post by yodapug on Feb 25, 2016 13:39:59 GMT -5
Good morning folks, let's get this thread back on track. With NORs for the September - December 2015 testers soon to be released, and the refresh/ALJ application opening announcement on the horizon (mid-late March) feel free to discuss the merits of appealing your NOR, whether a 2013 tester who received their NOR over a year ago should sit for the exam to try and raise their score, etc. etc. yodapug - this is where we can discuss your questions from the other thread Thank you for the heads up. Hopefully Valkyrie's post will prevent traffic accidents. However, I thought I would lay low and change up my avatar till this all blows over...
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Post by numbersix on Feb 25, 2016 13:41:50 GMT -5
I am a subgroup member and will add my two cents. I think you could appeal and gain points. But. You would still have a lower score and a difficult time making a cert. Wouldn't it be wise to apply again, with the experience of already having gone through the process? How high (or low) of a score would a person reasonably appeal?
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Post by yodapug on Feb 25, 2016 13:47:19 GMT -5
I am a subgroup member and will add my two cents. I think you could appeal and gain points. But. You would still have a lower score and a difficult time making a cert. Wouldn't it be wise to apply again, with the experience of already having gone through the process? How high (or low) of a score would a person reasonably appeal? That is the problem, or one of them. They don't tell you by how many points you missed the minimum score, so the appeal is a total gamble; however, as Aurora B noted if you win the appeal you kinda/sorta/maybe be ahead of the new applicants. Moreover, I did not pass the online component the first time, so I am not sure I would get past it next time. I just want to be on the register, I am not as concerned about a low score; that can be overlooked by SSA if they want to hire you.
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Post by numbersix on Feb 25, 2016 13:56:06 GMT -5
You can appeal your NOR if you get a score, yes? I will not appeal if I don't get a score. I'll reapply. I'd maybe consider an appeal to bump my score up higher in at least in the 70s. What am I missing?
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Post by Gaidin on Feb 25, 2016 13:59:08 GMT -5
You can appeal your NOR if you get a score, yes? I will not appeal if I don't get a score. I'll reapply. I'd maybe consider an appeal to bump my score up higher in at least in the 70s. What am I missing? They can review your WD or SI and decide you didn't make the cut after all.
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Post by bac on Feb 25, 2016 13:59:31 GMT -5
Good points
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Post by bac on Feb 25, 2016 14:00:12 GMT -5
You can appeal your NOR if you get a score, yes? I will not appeal if I don't get a score. I'll reapply. I'd maybe consider an appeal to bump my score up higher in at least in the 70s. What am I missing? They can review your WD or SI and decide you didn't make the cut after all. Yikes!
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Post by auroraborealis on Feb 25, 2016 14:01:00 GMT -5
I am a subgroup member and will add my two cents. I think you could appeal and gain points. But. You would still have a lower score and a difficult time making a cert. Wouldn't it be wise to apply again, with the experience of already having gone through the process? How high (or low) of a score would a person reasonably appeal? That is the problem, or one of them. They don't tell you by how many points you missed the minimum score, so the appeal is a total gamble; however, as Aurora B noted if you win the appeal you kinda/sorta/maybe be ahead of the new applicants. Moreover, I did not pass the online component the first time, so I am not sure I would get past it next time. I just want to be on the register, I am not as concerned about a low score; that can be overlooked by SSA if they want to hire you. I have the same concern, yodapug about the online component. I know there are different opinions about it, but in my opinion I could have done a coin toss for several of the answer options, which doesn't make me feel particularly confident about clearing that hurdle the second time around, despite having gone through it once and knowing what to expect.
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Post by yodapug on Feb 25, 2016 14:08:49 GMT -5
Agreed. The online component was a major change in the application process and, it is rumored, was the component added by OPM to filter insiders out. Regardless, I am not sure I could go through this process again.
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Post by tripper on Feb 25, 2016 14:10:24 GMT -5
That is the problem, or one of them. They don't tell you by how many points you missed the minimum score, so the appeal is a total gamble; however, as Aurora B noted if you win the appeal you kinda/sorta/maybe be ahead of the new applicants. Moreover, I did not pass the online component the first time, so I am not sure I would get past it next time. I just want to be on the register, I am not as concerned about a low score; that can be overlooked by SSA if they want to hire you. I have the same concern, yodapug about the online component. I know there are different opinions about it, but in my opinion I could have done a coin toss for several of the answer options, which doesn't make me feel particularly confident about clearing that hurdle the second time around, despite having gone through it once and knowing what to expect. I completely agree. Of all the different hurdles, that one is the only one that I don't think I could improve on a second time.
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Post by numbersix on Feb 25, 2016 17:23:14 GMT -5
Aurora and yoda, I definitely follow your logic if you are an insider. But, certs for each city only have three names on them, right? So, your score still has to make it to the top three or SSA can't reach down and scoop you up. Is that also correct?
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Post by gary on Feb 25, 2016 17:26:45 GMT -5
Aurora and yoda, I definitely follow your logic if you are an insider. But, certs for each city only have three names on them, right? So, your score still has to make it to the top three or SSA can't reach down and scoop you up. Is that also correct? Nope. They use dual certification meaning a candidate is on all certs for which her/his score and GAL makes them reachable.
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Post by yodapug on Feb 25, 2016 17:36:01 GMT -5
Yes I believe that is true; however, I have heard that if the Puzzle Palace wants to hire you they will find a way. I may be wrong but there have got to be cities where few choose to go. As more popular city certain get filled the agency still needs to get people in the ALJ seat everywhere so as all the higher scorers are hired for those popular cities the average score on the testing drops over time. Eventually they may get around to putting you on a cert. Likewise if you have a score of 99 on the testing, if SSA does not like you then that score will not get you hired just because you tested well. As I see it, it is better to be a low scorer on the register, because unless you are on it, you have no chance of being hired.
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Post by numbersix on Feb 25, 2016 18:37:04 GMT -5
Aurora and yoda, I definitely follow your logic if you are an insider. But, certs for each city only have three names on them, right? So, your score still has to make it to the top three or SSA can't reach down and scoop you up. Is that also correct? Nope. They use dual certification meaning a candidate is on all certs for which her/his score and GAL makes them reachable. Gary, I guess I don't follow. I understand that if you are a high scorer, you could be on a lot of certs. But I thought, guess I'm wrong, there are only three names on each and only three per cert are interviewed. Can you explain further?
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Post by Gaidin on Feb 25, 2016 18:43:07 GMT -5
Nope. They use dual certification meaning a candidate is on all certs for which her/his score and GAL makes them reachable. Gary, I guess I don't follow. I understand that if you are a high scorer, you could be on a lot of certs. But I thought, guess I'm wrong, there are only three names on each and only three per cert are interviewed. Can you explain further? There are enough people on each cert that every requested cert can be filled in any order. There are literally dozens of threads that discuss and explain this. I highly recommend you look at them. I'm on mobile or I would just link to a couple.
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Post by gary on Feb 25, 2016 19:41:19 GMT -5
Nope. They use dual certification meaning a candidate is on all certs for which her/his score and GAL makes them reachable. Gary, I guess I don't follow. I understand that if you are a high scorer, you could be on a lot of certs. But I thought, guess I'm wrong, there are only three names on each and only three per cert are interviewed. Can you explain further? In addition to dual certification, the rule that after an agency has considered a candidate for three positions it need not consider that candidate for subsequent positions affects how many candidates are on each cert. Here's an oversimplified example: All candidates have wide open GALs and no candidate has been considered yet. SSA requests four city certs. First city: The candidates are A, B, and C. A is hired. B and C have each received their first consideration. Second city: A, B, and C are the top scorers, but A has been hired leaving just two candidates. So D moves up into the top 3. D is hired. B and C have each received their second consideration. Third city: A, B, and C are top scorers but A is hired. So is D, so E moves into the top 3. E is hired. B and C each receive their third consideration. Fourth city: A, D, and E have been hired. B and C have received 3 considerations and need not be considered for this position, so F, G, and H are now considered. So, for one city 3 candidates are enough; for two cities 4 candidates; for three cities 5 candidates; and for four cities 8 candidates. It gets more complicated than this with more limited GALs and with candidates who have previously received one or more consideration. As Gaidin noted, you can find more detailed discussions in several past threads.
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Post by numbersix on Feb 25, 2016 19:54:15 GMT -5
Gary, I guess I don't follow. I understand that if you are a high scorer, you could be on a lot of certs. But I thought, guess I'm wrong, there are only three names on each and only three per cert are interviewed. Can you explain further? In addition to dual certification, the rule that after an agency has considered a candidate for three positions it need not consider that candidate for subsequent positions affects how many candidates are on each cert. Here's an oversimplified example: All candidates have wide open GALs and no candidate has been considered yet. SSA requests four city certs. First city: The candidates are A, B, and C. A is hired. B and C have each received their first consideration. Second city: A, B, and C are the top scorers, but A has been hired leaving just two candidates. So D moves up into the top 3. D is hired. B and C have each received their second consideration. Third city: A, B, and C are top scorers but A is hired. So is D, so E moves into the top 3. E is hired. B and C each receive their third consideration. Fourth city: A, D, and E have been hired. B and C have received 3 considerations and need not be considered for this position, so F, G, and H are now considered. So, for one city 3 candidates are enough; for two cities 4 candidates; for three cities 5 candidates; and for four cities 8 candidates. It gets more complicated than this with more limited GALs and with candidates who have previously received one or more consideration. As Gaidin noted, you can find more detailed discussions in several past threads. Thanks, Gary! That was very helpful.
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Post by 71stretch on Feb 26, 2016 1:32:55 GMT -5
W Nope. They use dual certification meaning a candidate is on all certs for which her/his score and GAL makes them reachable. Gary, I guess I don't follow. I understand that if you are a high scorer, you could be on a lot of certs. But I thought, guess I'm wrong, there are only three names on each and only three per cert are interviewed. Can you explain further? There are not just three on each cert. There are a lot of duplicate names on the certs, since many applicants have wide GALs with lots of cities on them. The order in which vacancies are filled, then, can make a lot of difference. As positions are filled using higher scorers, people below them move up into consideration. Everyone who appears on any cert who has not already been interviewed by ODAR since this register was created will be interviewed.
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Post by funkyodar on Feb 26, 2016 10:25:02 GMT -5
As usual gary and stretch are absolutely right right.
As a less hypothetical example, I offer myself. I had a wide open, go anywhere gal. My score was a 74.99, just slightly above the first rounders mean score but undoubtedly not high enough to be in any cities top 3 on the first cert. But I was on the first cert.
Everyone on a cert interviews (unless you were interviewed on a previous cert, you only get one). I interviewed and then watched multiple days of offers go out to other folks with higher scores. I assumed I was just filler and would have to hope for a second cert.
Ultimately, I got the call on the first cert.
They could not have hired me unless I eventually made it into one of my gal cities top 3. So, I must have.
How that happened had to be a result of two things. First, the city I was hired for is one of the less popular locales. Thus, I was likely closer to the top of that city's cert because less people were willing to go there.
Second and more importantly was the order they hired for the cities. Because they waited to near the end to hire for my city, many on that cert with higher scores than me had already been hired to other locales or had already been considered three times for other cities and thus were no longer ahead of me. It's a moving target and the order of cities allowed me to be elevated up my ultimate destination's cert to a hireable top 3 slot.
Thus, each city will have way more than 3 names on its cert. If you make a cert, you may end up filler or you may get hired. You wouldn't be on the cert unless there was some manner of selection that would make you hireable in some location. For that to happen, 3 important stars must align:
First, your gal. The more cities you are competing for the better. Especially if some of those are the less popular locales.
Second is your score. If you make a cert you are technically hireable somewhere. But the higher your score the more locales you will eventually be in a top 3 for and ssa has more options on when and where they hire you.
Finally, your interview and references. If those sink you and garner you a dreaded "nnot recommended" from the hiring committee, it doesn't matter what your score is. If you get a "recommended" (which is essentially a "we could live with this person") you could be hired or not. If there is someone they want more in direct competition with you, you're toast. But, if hiring you some where allows one they want more to move up to a spot where they can reach that person, congrats you are a judge. If you are that person they really want, i.e. you got the coveted "highly recommended" classification, odar will take the path that allows them to get to you.
Good luck. Exciting times.
Funk
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