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Post by 71stretch on Mar 18, 2014 13:30:17 GMT -5
As was already explained, OPM only uses a person once, so that's why they give SSA three times the names plus some. So, there are LOTS of people on the cert who, when it comes down to the agency actually working through the openings in some undetermined order and looking at the top three and striking people and moving others up, will NEVER be in the top three for any city on that cert. (hence the term "filler") I don't know that they start with "popular" cities, ("popular" cities aren't even on the certs, usually).
It really doesn't make sense to try to overanalyze the cert building stage of the process. Making the cert, whether it's the first, the second, or the third, is what's important, as it leads you to the interview atage of the process.
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Post by Gaidin on Mar 18, 2014 13:39:00 GMT -5
I am speculating here but if I were SSA I would want the whole process centered around where my greatest needs were. If they have an office that needs more ALJs than another office then I would work the list to fill jobs in higher need offices and work my way down.
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Post by dpageks on Mar 18, 2014 13:43:51 GMT -5
now I am confused. I'll just drink a glass of wine & wait Yah, me too. I still have no idea what that first step is in putting the cert together. Do they start with the highest scorer, and match him up to a city on his GAL? If so, which city? If "the most popular city," how do they determine what's "popular"? Or do they start with a city, and pull in the three highest scorers with that city on their GAL? If so, which city do they start with? If "the most popular one," again, how is that determined? Clear as mud despite the heroic efforts of folks on this board to explain it. [The one thing I now understand - and I thank everone for that - is that they do NOT start with the highest scorer and match him up to all cities on his GAL. Because if that were the case and he had a wide open GAL, he would be High 3 for every city. And if the next two highest scorers also had wide-open GALs, they would also be High 3 for every city, and there would only be 3 people on the cert.] Here are the Codes.
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Post by chinook on Mar 18, 2014 13:54:04 GMT -5
This discussion has been here since the exam was reopened in 2007. Here is a post from 2010 that gave my understanding of the cert. Mant questions are answered in those earlier posts.
"OPM looks at your GAL. As I understand it, the agency will request a cert with lets say 50 cities. They will receive the top 150 names by score who have one of those cities on their GAL. Suppose I am sitting here with the highest score on the register but the only city I have on my GAL is "East Overshoe" However, the agency is not looking for an ALJ in East Overshoe. Then, my name is not placed on the cert. On the other side, I am sitting with a 65, middle of the pack. This time East Overshoe is on the cert. But we all know that East overshoe is the most popular location so 15 people with higher scores also have East Overshoe on their GAL. The agency gets a list with the top 150 names who have any one of the cities listed on their GAL. Let's say the lowest score of the 150 is 61. I will still be on the cert even though there are 15 people with higher scores for my only city. In fact, I might not ever really be considered because East Overshoe got filled early.
Because most people have more than one city on their cert, the agency has flexibility and is not likely to hit a city without 3 people available for it."
Other than those at SSA who do the actual selection, I expect nobody knows how they pick the order of cities to be filled. That order is critical for them reaching who they want.
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Post by robespierre on Mar 18, 2014 14:44:30 GMT -5
Tremendously helpful, thanks Chinook. And thanks for posting the regs, DPage. They're consistent with what Chinook posted.
I guess I was envisioning many certs from OPM, one for each city, each consisting of the three highest scorers having that city on their GAL. I see now that it's one big cert, consisting of the X highest scorers with at least one relevant city on their GAL, where X = the number of vacancies times three. And then in hiring, SSA starts with a city, and considers the three highest with that city on their GAL. If SSA hires Applicant Smith for that city, then for the second city, they consider the three highest scorers with that city on their GAL, but if Smith is one of them, they replace him with the fourth highest scorer with that city on their GAL. About right?
Chinook states that nobody knows how they pick the order of cities, but the regs posted by DPage refer to the "first vacancy." Doesn't that kinda-sorta suggest that the first city considered is the one that first reported a vacancy?
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Post by dpageks on Mar 18, 2014 14:55:11 GMT -5
Based on SF 39 (Request for Referral of Eligibles--see attached), it appears that there is an SF 39 sent to OPM and a Certification of Eligibles issued for each open position.
5 C.F.R. ยง 332.402 Referring candidates for appointment.
OPM or a Delegated Examining Unit (DEU) will refer candidates for consideration by simultaneously listing a candidate on all certificates for which the candidate is interested (GAL), eligible (On the Register), and within reach (High Enough Score), except that, when it is deemed in the interest of good administration and candidates have been so notified, OPM or a DEU may choose to refer candidates for only one vacancy at a time. Selecting officials will receive sufficient names, when available, to allow them to consider at least 3 candidates for each vacancy.
This is not to say that all of the SF 39s wouldn't be submitted to OPM at the same time. However, they would be processed individually. More than likely, they would be processed in the order they were picked up off of someone's desk.
Also, OPM allowed people on the Register (Eligible List) to amend their GALs on the one previous occasion because SSA was upset with the lack of qualified people that OPM certified. This was precipitated by SSA's rejection of an entire certificate. This is an ongoing battle between SSA and OPM (Google it) and could very well happen again.
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 18, 2014 14:59:13 GMT -5
I think "first vacancy" is whichever one ODAR says it is, when they go to start selecting.
As has been discussed several times already, do not expect OPM to permit expansion of GALs anytime soon. We will all have to live with what we have (except for REDUCING GALs when we make a cert), I'd say for at least a couple of years.
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Post by bartleby on Mar 18, 2014 15:05:30 GMT -5
Okay, the Cert I saw had the highest scorers at the top and descending in scoring order. So if the highest scorer had one city and that city was on the CERT he would go against the next two highest scorers that had that city on their GAL. One of those three, not necessarily the highest would be picked. The next high scorer, possibly the same one would be looked at for his second city along with the next two highest for that city. One would be picked. If not the highest scorer, they would look at his third picked city against two otehr highest one. If he wasn't picked, he COULD be three struck, depending on the desires of the Agency. I think the cities were in the order of number of people picking them on their GAL. If everyone listed Tampa and Tampa needed one Judge teh above wopuld apply. If the second most popular city was Chicago, and the highest scorer had that on his GAL, then the above would apply. They work down the list of top scorers and most picked cities. They have a large, very large spread sheet and they work down it and across, with the names of scorers going down the list and cities going across the top. In the one I saw, the highest scorer got three struck after three looks, and one that was down the list to 256 was eventually picked for a city after 11 or so looks or strikes.. It has been a few years, but this is what I remember.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 18, 2014 15:11:27 GMT -5
It wouldn't be difificult for opm to generate a ranked list from 1 to 800 + for each city odar puts on the cert. Then, it would then be fairly easy to place everyone's name who is in the top 3 for more than one city on the cert.
All of those folks are then on the cert. Opm could next just turn back toits individual city ranking lists and generate a top 3 for each city, irrespective of those they already placed on the cert list.
This would result in the cert consisting of at least 3 names for each slot (as is mandated) and a cert that has more than 3x the slots (as is usual). It also accounts for the fact that some folks are on the cert but never really in contention because they really aren't in the top 3 for anywhere (which has also been reported).
Then, as odar works the cert, they just start with whatever city they want and look at the top 3 on the cert for that city. When they choose one for the slot, there could be a ripple effect moving someone else (who technically wasn't a top 3 anywhere) into contention.
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Post by privateatty on Mar 18, 2014 19:15:00 GMT -5
Okay, the Cert I saw had the highest scorers at the top and descending in scoring order. So if the highest scorer had one city and that city was on the CERT he would go against the next two highest scorers that had that city on their GAL. One of those three, not necessarily the highest would be picked. The next high scorer, possibly the same one would be looked at for his second city along with the next two highest for that city. One would be picked. If not the highest scorer, they would look at his third picked city against two otehr highest one. If he wasn't picked, he COULD be three struck, depending on the desires of the Agency. I think the cities were in the order of number of people picking them on their GAL. If everyone listed Tampa and Tampa needed one Judge teh above wopuld apply. If the second most popular city was Chicago, and the highest scorer had that on his GAL, then the above would apply. They work down the list of top scorers and most picked cities. They have a large, very large spread sheet and they work down it and across, with the names of scorers going down the list and cities going across the top. In the one I saw, the highest scorer got three struck after three looks, and one that was down the list to 256 was eventually picked for a city after 11 or so looks or strikes.. It has been a few years, but this is what I remember. I heard it from a very reliable source that this is how they did it in the past. Thanks, bartleby. If you are a high scorer and come into the Puzzle Palace Interview wearing that score--well good luck, because you will need it.
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Post by Gaidin on Mar 19, 2014 8:58:25 GMT -5
Do we really think ODAR will re-interview everyone who has already been interviewed? Hard to believe the questions will be much different. Wondering if anyone appearing on different Registers was interviewed twice... I don't see how they can afford not to. This is a new register and they have to treat it as such or they risk litigation that they would probably lose.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 19, 2014 9:34:08 GMT -5
Observer, private, workdrone or anybody else that has insight:
Everyone is clearly obsessed about where they rank. When the cert comes out, the timeline thread indicates interviews will follow relatively quickly.
Will the order of interviews give us any indication where we are on the cert? IE will they start with scheduling the highest rated on the first day and go down?
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Post by JudgeRatty on Mar 19, 2014 11:06:13 GMT -5
The post was written April 2008. Comparing the post to the timeline, it looks like this poll reflected scores of those hired in Feb 2008. It may reflect a cert after the Feb 2008 hires, I am not sure. But my point in this is that those with lower scores may want to think about this when considering an appeal. Now, with that said, the testing is much different and scores may be in a different range as well. But this clearly demonstrates how GAL affects getting on the cert. aljdiscussion.proboards.com/thread/949/scores-who-cert
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 19, 2014 11:33:28 GMT -5
Observer, private, workdrone or anybody else that has insight: Everyone is clearly obsessed about where they rank. When the cert comes out, the timeline thread indicates interviews will follow relatively quickly. Will the order of interviews give us any indication where we are on the cert? IE will they start with scheduling the highest rated on the first day and go down? No.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 19, 2014 12:06:43 GMT -5
Well, so much for that
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Post by maxlaw on Mar 19, 2014 17:39:26 GMT -5
I have it on good authority the SSA has received a certificate from OPM. If you're a hopeful, I'd watch the email over the next couple of days.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 19, 2014 17:47:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the heads up max. Good luck everyone.
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Post by westernalj on Mar 19, 2014 18:02:10 GMT -5
Any information as to the size?
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Post by privateatty on Mar 19, 2014 19:25:02 GMT -5
Observer, private, workdrone or anybody else that has insight: Everyone is clearly obsessed about where they rank. When the cert comes out, the timeline thread indicates interviews will follow relatively quickly. Will the order of interviews give us any indication where we are on the cert? IE will they start with scheduling the highest rated on the first day and go down? No. Yup. No.
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Post by mch135 on Mar 19, 2014 19:27:42 GMT -5
I have it on good authority the SSA has received a certificate from OPM. If you're a hopeful, I'd watch the email over the next couple of days. That was fast - as slow as this whole process has been, it's hard to process that things are actually moving forward. Good luck everyone!
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