If and When An Offer is Made....?

[jagghagg]

For those of you who have gone through this process before, if you will, a question: Many on the list are current federal employees, if offered an ALJ position which would be accepted, when is a discussion had regarding the level of salary (for those who exceed the ALJ3-A level) and moving expenses ?

[Waffle]

Great Question, JH!

May I tag along with the following additional questions:

1) How can we/should we negotiate for increased annual leave based on lengthy prior federal/military service?

2) How can we/should we negotiate for increased pay if we have significant experience that directly benefits SSA (e.g., lengthy judicial experience/medical-legal experience/etc...).

Thanks for the great idea, JAGHAGG!

[aljsouth]

waffle said:

Great Question, JH!

May I tag along with the following additional questions:

1) How can we/should we negotiate for increased annual leave based on lengthy prior federal/military service?

2) How can we/should we negotiate for increased pay if we have significant experience that directly benefits SSA (e.g., lengthy judicial experience/medical-legal experience/etc...).

Thanks for the great idea, JAGHAGG!

Prior federal experience will be listed by you on a form and you will get credit for that service toward annual leave. There is no negotiation.

Good luck on increased pay unless you make more already as a federal employee. Bring it up before you accept the offer and, well...good luck.

[aljsouth]

jagghagg said:

For those of you who have gone through this process before, if you will, a question: Many on the list are current federal employees, if offered an ALJ position which would be accepted, when is a discussion had regarding the level of salary (for those who exceed the ALJ3-A level) and moving expenses ?

If the agency does what is right it will provide you with information about moving assistance -- in my class there was a meeting of ALJ's that had been current federal employees before selection at which agency officials went over that information. Certainly, after accepting the offer, you can ask the OCALJ employee who called you about the right person for you to ask about relocation assistance since you are a current federal employee.

Ditto the salary question if you already exceed the starting salary with geographic add ons (for most of us " rest of us"). I always found the employees at OCALJ to be helpful and would try to direct you to the right source.

[sta]

During the phone call when the offer is made, you should be asking about salary, if this is a need to know before deciding to accept. You will be talking to a personnelist.

[lurker]

Does SSA treat the move to an ALJ position the way my federal agency would treat a promotion? Basically, my agency uses a formula where they look at your current GS grade and step, move up one step, and then take you to the step at the next grade level that pays higher than your step +1. (I know, that's clear as mud, right).
Or would SSA just try to match my current pay (GS grade + step) without going lower?

[doctorwho]

Generally, agencies try to follow the previous highest pay rule where federal employees make at least as much as they are making at the agency they are leaving when they go to a new agency. This may not always be an option if you are moving to a job classification that is capped at a salary that makes LESS money than the one you are leaving. For example, a member of the SES that is currently making $170k a year, will be taking a paycut if she takes an ALJ job, plain and simple.

If you're a staff attorney making, let's say $120k, a receiving agency will generally bring you in at $120k or as close to $120k without going under (meaning $121k but not $119k) under the previous highest pay rule.

Now, for the disclaimer -- what I've described is what generally happens. Actual mileage may vary. What you absolutely do need if you are a federal employee is: A COPY OF YOUR MOST CURRENT SF 50. The personnel office will need that to verify/set your current pay. Keep it handy.

[doctorwho]

waffle said:

1) How can we/should we negotiate for increased annual leave based on lengthy prior federal/military service?

Negotiating for extra pay based on experience is virtually impossible so I wont touch that one. The leave question, however, I think I can answer.

If you have prior federal government experience, the years should transfer over year for year and will be added to your "total" for leave counting purposes.

If you have military service, the years do not transfer over year for year (there is some formula credit that I don't know) and you will need to "buy-in" based on the number of years you want credit for (different retirement systems). They give you a payment plan. Don't worry. Once they know how many total years of service you have, personnel adjusts your annual leave category accordingly: 4 hours [up to three years of service], 6 hours [3 to 15 years of service], or 8 hours [after 15 years of service].

[jagghagg]

Gentlemen, my apologies --- I think my question was a little more logistical than anything else. I'm aware, of course, that they know I am already a federal employee; such is, as noted by 'South, listed on my resume and materials. What they don't know is at what level I am currently being paid. While I know, as the good Doc notes, most agencies tend to follow the general rule of bringing in a current federal employee laterally plus one step, I don't know when this subject is raised. (In the past, this subject was always part of the last interview before the offer was made.) As Dr. Who said, were I an SESer, (ah-hahahaha!) chances are that I would be taking a pay cut, but would it be a pay cut to ALJ3-F ? Or if I were a GS-14/Step 10, would I be brought in at an ALJ3-B ? Wouldn't the agency want to make that determination before they make an offer to me or do they assume that they are bringing in everybody at the ALJ3-A level unless the applicant brings the subject up ? So that, I guess, is my question: if fortunate enough to get a phone call asking me if I want to go to Podunk, Wherever - do I say, "Wow, what a great offer; I am currently a GS-XX - at what level would the SSA be bringing me on board and would the Agency be paying my moving expenses to come to Podunk?" Or will they be broaching the subject ?

[tater]

doctorwho said:

Generally, agencies try to follow the previous highest pay rule where federal employees make at least as much as they are making at the agency they are leaving when they go to a new agency. This may not always be an option if you are moving to a job classification that is capped at a salary that makes LESS money than the one you are leaving. For example, a member of the SES that is currently making $170k a year, will be taking a paycut if she takes an ALJ job, plain and simple.

If you're a staff attorney making, let's say $120k, a receiving agency will generally bring you in at $120k or as close to $120k without going under (meaning $121k but not $119k) under the previous highest pay rule.

Now, for the disclaimer -- what I've described is what generally happens. Actual mileage may vary. What you absolutely do need if you are a federal employee is: A COPY OF YOUR MOST CURRENT SF 50. The personnel office will need that to verify/set your current pay. Keep it handy.

If you're a staff attorney making, let's say $120k, a receiving agency will generally bring you in at $120k or as close to $120k without going under (meaning $121k but not $119k) under the previous highest pay rule.

A Staff Attorney at 121 K? Is that with overtime.? I thought based pay for even a GS 13 step was 100K, and much less for a GS 12 SA. Do they count the overtime when salary for alj is discussed?.

[workdrone]

tater said:

A Staff Attorney at 121 K? Is that with overtime.? I thought based pay for even a GS 13 step was 100K, and much less for a GS 12 SA. Do they count the overtime when salary for alj is discussed?.

I think the 120k figure was just an example and shouldn't be applied literally to ODAR SA and AAs (and no, overtime doesn't count). However, there are staff attorneys in other federal agencies that are GS-14s, whose step 10 base rate cap out at $105420, which is higher than an ALJ 3-A's base rate of $99500 (I didn't use locality pay numbers because it just muddle things and that portion of the pay will not be considered by the agency).

And for anyone less than GS-14/8 or higher, GS-15/3 or higher, and SESers, this topic is academic anyways.

[doctorwho]

Y'all, let's not forget that there are SESers, and GS15s that have applied and are on the cert. I happen to know quite a few of them. And, no, they do not work at ODAR. But, you are correct Workdrone, the $120k was just an example I picked because I knew it would be above the ALJ base pay.

[jagghagg]

Thanks, G-Panda. I'd hoped someone who had endured the process before would know, but I can blather with the best of 'em, so --- should I get an offer --- I will do as you suggest.

[texasatty]

I couldn't post yesterday due to a busy server. I believe the appointment & pay issues for new aljs is covered comprehensively on the Office of ALJ Dept. of Labor website. I believe the information, regulations cited apply to SSA alj applicants as well. I couldn't find anything similar on any SSA website. See: www.oalj.dol.gov/PUBLIC/APA/REFERENCES/REGULATIONS/5CFR930.HTM

I downloaded it back in September. Hopefully, it's still up.

[jagghagg]

Feb 6, 2008 21:40:52 GMT -5 @globalpanda said:

Jagg- the simple answer to your question is that you should ask your question when they make the offer. If the person calling does not know the answer immediately, they will tell you how and when you can get the information (generally from Personnel)

No one will be offended if you ask. This will be a critical issue for you if you are counting on relocation reimbursement. Most of us can tolerate a small pay cut for a better job. But selling your house and moving cross county can be expensive!

If you are so inclined- dig out the initial job announcement. It should contain the name and phone number of the personnel analyst who is the point of contact. You could call them and ask your questions directly.

Being the compliant soul that I am [ ] I did, indeed, dig out the initial job announcement and when I to the realization that these matters are not addressed therein, it dawned on me that these questions are agency-specific. (Ok, so I am a little slow....) It will be up to HUD, DOL, SSA, etc. as to whether moves will be reimbursed and it will be up to the agency bringing you on as to the level at which your pay will be set. So no one will know until the conversation is initiated. (Bummer. )

[advancedage]

(I don't know if others are having a similar problem, but I have been unable to post on this board for many weeks. Only after deleting my temporary Internet files/cookies today was I able to do so.)

What I wanted to note was that the above-posted link to the DOL CFR should not be used for current ALJ pay issues because it has not been updated to reflect recent regulatory changes.

Try this electronic CFR link --

tinyurl.com/2cplhu

Or read this excerpt:

(f) Upon appointment to a position at AL–3, an administrative law judge may be paid at the minimum rate A, unless the administrative law judge is eligible for the higher rate B, C, D, E, or F because of prior service or superior qualifications, as provided in paragraphs (f)(1) and (f)(2) of this section.

(1) An agency may offer an administrative law judge applicant with prior Federal service a higher than minimum rate up to the lowest rate of basic pay that equals or exceeds the applicant's highest previous Federal rate of basic pay, not to exceed the maximum rate F.

(2) With prior OPM approval, an agency may pay the rate of pay that is next above the applicant's existing pay or earnings up to the maximum rate F. The agency may offer a higher than minimum rate to:

(i) An administrative law judge applicant with superior qualifications (as defined in §930.202) who is within reach for appointment from an administrative law judge certificate of eligibles; or

(ii) A former administrative law judge with superior qualifications who is eligible for reinstatement. * * *

[yogibear]

Advanced Age,
Thank you very much! That's great information.
Yogi

[texasatty]

Advanced Age,

Great post & site. I stand corrected.

[privateatty]

IF AND WHEN AN OFFER IS MADE:

--Ring ring.

--Hellooo? (tone varies depending on caller ID).

--Doofus Privateattorney, please, this is Leida Leapinlizards of Social Security calling.

--This is Mr. Privateattorney--Leida?! OH GOD, Leida Leida Leida (huge deep breath, quickly followed by nasal heavy breathing the likes of which are used in training videos in police academies in studying Vice 101)

--Take a moment, Mr. Privateattorney. We are calling to see if you want to go to New Orleans and accept a position with us as an Administrative Law Judge....

Leida hears a loud THUD and nothing further.

--Mr. Privateattorney? Helloooo?! We need to have an answer in twenty four hours. Your position will be offered to someone else....Sir?!

--Click.

Five minutes later Doofus dusts himself off and answers a dial tone. He tries to call the number on caller ID but it is busy. He tries all day with the same result. He finally gets through and is advised that his acceptance depends on his willingness to accept an office in a FEMA trailer. He accepts with no hesitation and makes an appointment to see his pulmonologist.