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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 10:27:40 GMT -5
Supp: helpful tidbit. I have also found that in re; to any perceived inner office management issues, following the transcendental advice of one of the greatest management minds to ever exist is well worth your study and consideration; namely: consider the studious management styles and practices of the highly esteemed and reknowned Homer Simpson approach as an office wide email will erupt with squeals of delight and smiley emojis for all: "It's Wednesday and Judge Linehan brought donuts again!".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 10:40:25 GMT -5
Is SAA considered a better position than an SSA OGC Attorney position?
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Post by beenlurking on Jan 6, 2016 11:07:05 GMT -5
Tiger's two point post from 01/03/16 is dead-on accurate from my perspective. I would certainly agree that as I am also post-20 years private practice, the position of an ALJ is in direct comparison to same, extremely low stress. (Cf., ALJ behind in ALPO, gets an innocuous and oft-ignored email saying "hey, uh, like uh, hey, it looks like, uh you are uh, behind in ALPO, just saying you know..." compared to private practitioner facing mandatory fedct deadline of which failure to comply can result in very real fedct sanctions, fines, bar complaints/sanctions and malpractice suits from clients.) Scheduling 6 months out? In reality this task (at least in my case from two different offices) amounts to no more than the scheduler poking her head in my office and asking "Hey Judge, when are you going to be gone for vacations in the next 6 months?" I reply to the effect "oh probably take a week off First week of February and then I think another week last of May." Scheduler: "Got it, thanks!" That is basically "the scheduling task". I then see my calendar receive docket schedules appear on my computer usually in 3-month-in-advance chunks. In both offices I have attended, other than a generic query from the scheduler when you first start working at an office (e.g., do you want hearings every week, every other day, every other week, kids and unrepped at first of day, etc) I do not schedule my hearings, never have in either office. The hearings are scheduled by the scheduler, I simply show up, coffee in hand, robe dragging, when and where directed. My sole physical task requirement consists of inserting my ID card to start up the computer and clicking on the video remote (but many times I don't even get to do this arduous task as my clerk does same for me.) All non-hearing days are in turn at my sole discretion to schedule as in office, Telework, credit days, etc. I usually schedule these on my own personal calendar so family can see when I will be at home. The scheduling process from my direct experience is quite frankly from my experience, easy-peasy. And also in agreement with Tiger, I will also do well over 500 dispositions this year. Doing +500 per year is really is not that difficult at all. I, as with Tiger, finished my partial year last year with well over 300 dispositions, but alas, I did have one (1) AC remand. Not on the merits, but on a "failure to show" dismissal; i.e., SSA had the wrong address. Dealing with local management as an issue? That is and has been a non-issue from my experience as well. Basic rule of thumb there is, you are a grown person, you have been well trained as a professional, you know what you have to do. Now do it. I have found no problems with local management. Having been in private practice myself, chasing clients, billing hours, etc...I liked this post but only because there is not a "love it" button.
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Post by prescient on Jan 6, 2016 12:15:24 GMT -5
Is SAA considered a better position than an SSA OGC Attorney position? In terms of getting hired as an ALJ, OGC is far superior. OGC also wins in terms of how interesting the job is. SAA prob wins for QOL but not by much
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Post by Ready-Now! on Jan 6, 2016 12:57:06 GMT -5
Papajudge, as a 20+ year private practitioner awaiting a nor I will say I love your post! As an ALJ hopeful,one of the greatest things I look forward to would be a singular focus of law. It would be akin to heaven on earth!
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Post by Administrator ALJ on Jan 6, 2016 13:34:01 GMT -5
I, too, am very happy to see this thread. I am also an SAA awaiting testing results. I am at the point now where I'd actually be relieved to not make it to the next step. The SAA job has so much flexibility for QOL issues (at least in my office) and the only thing I don't like is the mind-numbing boredom of decision-writing (oh, and some of the ALJ instructions). Does the increase in pay make up for the loss of flexibility and the fact that we have to (likely) move away from our homes for two years? I'm not convinced. I'm completely ignorant of the SAA responsibilities, so this question may sound naive. I'm a state ALJ, and I hold my own hearings and write my own decisions. Is that different with the Fed hiring? Why would any ALJ want someone else writing their decisions? I hate ceding any responsibility for something that is going to go out with my signature above it. Maybe that's just me. Thanks in advance for any replies. And thanks Christina for the thread.
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Post by lizdarcy on Jan 6, 2016 14:22:00 GMT -5
My scheduling experience is not exactly as breezy as described above. I have already given dates for June. This is in no way critical of my HO or scheduler. Both are great. I'm saying my experience has been different.
Coming from a private solo practice where I made my own schedule, it has been difficult for me to adjust to SSA. There are so many rules and no rule book, also no employee handbook. I have learned the beauty of credit hours and how to make time for yourself when necessary. I work a lot of hours and have not had much time for anything other than work so far. I am very happy not to be billing and trying to collect, two activities I do not miss.
I wrote my own decisions for 25 years. They were complicated, lengthy (15 pages or more) substantive decisions in hotly contested adversarial proceedings, sometimes in very public arenas (i.e., discussed in the newspapers). This is not what you will be doing at SSA. You will hold a lot of hearings a month, none longer than about an hour. There's not much variation in the subject matter. After the hearings you will write instructions for the staff attorneys who will write the decisions. If that's not for you, this is a good time to find out. You might find this job to be boring or not your cup of tea. BTW, I am in great admiration of the writers, who know much more than I do and generally do an amazingly professional and difficult job.
Finally, FMLA leave is never used for something as mundane as taking a day for a sick child. There are very specific qualifications and requirements for applying for FMLA leave, including the requirement that an employee must have worked at minimum one year AND AT LEAST 1250 actual working hours before s/he is entitled to FMLA leave. The DOL website is a good place to find out about FMLA requirements and what qualifies as a serious health condition that would make an employee eligible for FMLA. I don't want anyone to think they can use FMLA leave in the way that has been described on this thread. In my experience as a labor and employment attorney, the federal government agencies follow the letter of the law on FMLA.,
With sincere regards from a grumpy old curmudgeon --
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Post by mercury on Jan 6, 2016 14:25:56 GMT -5
Hi NRG, I am not an ALJ but as an AA I obviously deal with their work product. In a nutshell, the answer is time and money.
SSA ALJs are expected to produce about 500 dispositions a year. That means multiple hearings per day.
The agency estimates an unfavorable decision takes about 8 hours to write, although there is some recognition that this may need to be increased.
ALJs would have significantly fewer dispositions if they wrote decisions themselves. Decision writers are cheaper to hire and allow the ALJ to focus on analysis and making the decision, rather than effectuating it.
That is the agency perspective at least, and given the production environment, makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 14:26:01 GMT -5
I'm completely ignorant of the SAA responsibilities, so this question may sound naive. I'm a state ALJ, and I hold my own hearings and write my own decisions. Is that different with the Fed hiring? Why would any ALJ want someone else writing their decisions? I hate ceding any responsibility for something that is going to go out with my signature above it. Maybe that's just me. Thanks in advance for any replies. And thanks Christina for the thread. Slow down cowboy!!!.... (I'm out west now and that's what we say out here)..."why would any ALJ want someone else writing their decisions?"...I hate ceding any responsibility for something that is going to go out with signature..."
If you really feel that strongly about that concept, decline any offers to interview with ODAR, as you will hate being a United States Administrative Law Judge (OGC can disagree with the title) for the Social Security Administration (SSA).
ALJs conducting hearings for the Social Security Administration schedule about 500-700 hearings a year. These are hearings that determine if an American is disabled after working their entire life (you hope that they have worked for most of their life). The F section alone (medical records) could be 300 to 3,000 pages (I have been blessed in my ALJ life with far less) and you must review all of the exhibits (1A-35F) and then hold the hearing.
The folks that appear in front of you are at the end of their rope, their life could very well end by suicide or death with your decision. After hundreds of hearings, I still can still feel the pain and emotion with the testimony, and I AM a cold hearted SOB (5th Generation at least!!)
If you can prepare for that many hearing a year and write your own decisions, you are too talented to work for the Federal Government. You should be the CEO of a major corporation or on the Supreme Court. IMHO!
Tigerlaw United States Administrative Law Judge (OGC can STILL disagree, my original comment stated that OGC could kiss my backside, but apparently the word A....S...S... is too ugly for Attorneys and Judges!!)
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Post by aljwishhope on Jan 6, 2016 14:44:56 GMT -5
In response to tripper comments. IMHO my decisions are far superior to many of my colleagues. I think that was true when I wrote for SSA. I do not like form paragraphs or macros. However both my present agency and SSA often have long backlogs. When reviewing something written by someone else but for my signature i have to let go of ego. Is it legally sufficient, factually accurate, responsive and grammatically correct? I might make some changes but the bottom line is to get the decision out the door. The issues I face are not life or death but it is still very stressful for the person awaiting the decision. I spoke to a lady last night regarding a decision I wrote. She had to hang up and call me back because she lost her composure. She wants relief and it is more important that more persons get relief (or at least resolution) than an exceptional quality written product
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 14:45:17 GMT -5
Papajudge, as a 20+ year private practitioner awaiting a nor I will say I love your post! As an ALJ hopeful,one of the greatest things I look forward to would be a singular focus of law. It would be akin to heaven on earth! Readynow,
Papajudge is a great and wise Judge (he buys me a beer every time I endorse him!), but you brought up the biggest attraction for this job for myself also...."singular focus of law".
I truly believe that the vast majority of highly educated Attorneys wish to be the best at their job and the ability to focus on ONE area of law and become an expert in that area, while still providing a good standard of living for your family.....well that is priceless in my opinion.
IMHO, tiger
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Post by hopefalj on Jan 6, 2016 14:48:22 GMT -5
Thank you, @tigerlaw and @nqcebxxte for this reality check. I am not currently in a job where I can take leave on a whim or work from home the majority of the time. My schedule is often dictated by jurists who believe that 4:30 pm on the Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend is a fine time to begin a hearing on a suppression motion. (Which leads to me wonder if I should start a separate thread of "if I ever became a judge, I would never...." based on true life courtroom drama. But I digress.)
I just wanted to thank you for the reassurance that, while quite busy and with an expectation that you should be at work and do your job, the ALJ position is not so oppressively burdensome that you're left with regret and feeling that you should have applied for a SAA or AA job instead. I'll also agree with that. If you're coming from a high-pressured litigation practice or some other facet of the private practice world that requires long hours, demanding clients, last-minute deadlines, etc., the ALJ position will be a breeze. I had a recent week where I thought I had worked a bunch, realized I had put in 51 hours that week (11 credit-woo hoo!), and then slapped myself in the face for thinking I was working a lot. This job as more stress than my AA job did, but neither approaches private practice from my experience. Others may have had a better private practice life than I, but from the perspective of an attorney that had to grind out billables, received e-mails from partners about last-minute deadlines on Fridays, and got angry phone calls from clients, the ALJ job is a dream.
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Post by tripper on Jan 6, 2016 14:58:09 GMT -5
Thank you, @tigerlaw and @nqcebxxte for this reality check. I am not currently in a job where I can take leave on a whim or work from home the majority of the time. My schedule is often dictated by jurists who believe that 4:30 pm on the Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend is a fine time to begin a hearing on a suppression motion. (Which leads to me wonder if I should start a separate thread of "if I ever became a judge, I would never...." based on true life courtroom drama. But I digress.)
I just wanted to thank you for the reassurance that, while quite busy and with an expectation that you should be at work and do your job, the ALJ position is not so oppressively burdensome that you're left with regret and feeling that you should have applied for a SAA or AA job instead. I'll also agree with that. If you're coming from a high-pressured litigation practice or some other facet of the private practice world that requires long hours, demanding clients, last-minute deadlines, etc., the ALJ position will be a breeze. I had a recent week where I thought I had worked a bunch, realized I had put in 51 hours that week (11 credit-woo hoo!), and then slapped myself in the face for thinking I was working a lot. This job as more stress than my AA job did, but neither approaches private practice from my experience. Others may have had a better private practice life than I, but from the perspective of an attorney that had to grind out billables, received e-mails from partners about last-minute deadlines on Fridays, and got angry phone calls from clients, the ALJ job is a dream. My takeaway from these posts so far is, compared to private practice, it's a dream job, but compared to SAA, maybe not so.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 15:21:49 GMT -5
I'll also agree with that. If you're coming from a high-pressured litigation practice or some other facet of the private practice world that requires long hours, demanding clients, last-minute deadlines, etc., the ALJ position will be a breeze. I had a recent week where I thought I had worked a bunch, realized I had put in 51 hours that week (11 credit-woo hoo!), and then slapped myself in the face for thinking I was working a lot. This job as more stress than my AA job did, but neither approaches private practice from my experience. Others may have had a better private practice life than I, but from the perspective of an attorney that had to grind out billables, received e-mails from partners about last-minute deadlines on Fridays, and got angry phone calls from clients, the ALJ job is a dream. Amen brother,
I did not do the big/bigger law firm type practice, (after 20 years in the Army I was too old to go the traditional route) but running your own law office for 14 years gets old real quick. Funky, Hilltopper and I had this conversation more than once over beers in Tupelo and yes we do have demands upon us as U. S. Administrative Law Judges (OGC can kiss my A.....S.....S), but this is a great job coming out of solo private practice.
I spend 20 years running hard in the United States Army (I loved the Army years) and then 14 years as a Criminal Defense Attorney with a very good practice, winning more jury trials than I lost, but running an office with hundreds of clients, employees, and 10 attorneys renting office space from you, it will kick your butt....
I work a lot of hours now, but I have said to others that I am semi-retired, as compared to the Army and private practice. And that is with me being the ALJ with the most credit hours worked in my office! Hilltopper works more than me, but he's down south, no longer in the same office.
IMHO, tiger
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 15:50:08 GMT -5
My takeaway from these posts so far is, compared to private practice, it's a dream job, but compared to SAA, maybe not so. I don't remember if you are currently a decision writer or not, so if your experience differs, so be it.
I have yet to meet an Attorney Writer (SAA or AA) that enjoys their job after about 7 years, (I am not saying that they hate their job or that they wish to leave their job, just that they do not enjoy the job as much as they would wish for job satisfaction) . EVERY single one of them say that they are tired of writing opinions for others (others being ME!!).
I guess you could get tired of being an ALJ as a job....I don't know how, just short of being a Powerball jackpot winner, but you could depending on your circumstances.
Myself, I started washing dishes in a truck stop near the Tennessee River at the age of 12 for $1.25 an hour, dropped out of High School at 16 and joined the Army, I will not bore you with the "rest of the story", other than to say that this job is "as good as it gets" in my lifetime!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 16:04:45 GMT -5
Tigerlaw and I could long compare notes of the old days. And yes position this is as good as it gets for employment in my opinion as well. (Comparison: when I talked to my eldest son this past Christmas Day who is a private attorney in a large city, I had to call him at his law office. He was hoping to take off early at 2 pm and go home for a few hours before returning. [sigh...Cats in the Cradle playing in the back of my head])
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Post by privateatty on Jan 6, 2016 17:11:25 GMT -5
Papajudge, as a 20+ year private practitioner awaiting a nor I will say I love your post! As an ALJ hopeful,one of the greatest things I look forward to would be a singular focus of law. It would be akin to heaven on earth! Readynow,
Papajudge is a great and wise Judge (he buys me a beer every time I endorse him!), but you brought up the biggest attraction for this job for myself also...."singular focus of law".
I truly believe that the vast majority of highly educated Attorneys wish to be the best at their job and the ability to focus on ONE area of law and become an expert in that area, while still providing a good standard of living for your family.....well that is priceless in my opinion.
IMHO, tiger
I have been reading this thread and thinking about it for a few days now and I am left with one over-riding comment. If you were a Judge you would not ask the question. I will concede the possibility that there are folks who have left an ODAR ALJ position to become a ODAR SAA or AA. Perhaps the cut in pay and being subject to the whims of a supervisor did not faze them. I keep telling myself that I need a more open mind. But seriously? I mean how can you equate the two? It reminds me of a place I once lived where the folks didn't leave and move away from very much. Based upon what they knew they were content to assume that the rest of the world lived as them. Granted they had/have it very good. But a lack of imagination and a deeply parochial bent does not make the well rounded man or woman. I used to assume that the federal ALJs I practiced in front of were boobs and no-nothings--my ego always demanded that I knew more than they did--how else could they rule against me? A few older ODAR ALJs on these pages are stuck in the forest and face up against a tree of frustration and perhaps boredom. Cut it down I say with the zeal that got you into the forest in the first place. 90% of the Judges are at ODAR. The other 10% are at some 20 or more other agencies and their work life could not be more different--except for the fact they we are all part of the US Administrative Law Judge Corps (yes, ODAR OGC doesn't allow politics to color their "thinking"--hah). And BTW, that last comment speaks volumes about why the original question is silly IMHO and why I applaud anotherfed wearing her grubbies to work. May the Corps be with you in your future.
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Post by Ready-Now! on Jan 6, 2016 18:15:04 GMT -5
Tigerlaw, it is priceless indeed and amen!
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Post by Administrator ALJ on Jan 6, 2016 19:22:11 GMT -5
I'm completely ignorant of the SAA responsibilities, so this question may sound naive. I'm a state ALJ, and I hold my own hearings and write my own decisions. Is that different with the Fed hiring? Why would any ALJ want someone else writing their decisions? I hate ceding any responsibility for something that is going to go out with my signature above it. Maybe that's just me. Thanks in advance for any replies. And thanks Christina for the thread. Slow down cowboy!!!.... (I'm out west now and that's what we say out here)..."why would any ALJ want someone else writing their decisions?"...I hate ceding any responsibility for something that is going to go out with signature..."
If you really feel that strongly about that concept, decline any offers to interview with ODAR, as you will hate being a United States Administrative Law Judge (OGC can disagree with the title) for the Social Security Administration (SSA).
ALJs conducting hearings for the Social Security Administration schedule about 500-700 hearings a year. These are hearings that determine if an American is disabled after working their entire life (you hope that they have worked for most of their life). The F section alone (medical records) could be 300 to 3,000 pages (I have been blessed in my ALJ life with far less) and you must review all of the exhibits (1A-35F) and then hold the hearing.
The folks that appear in front of you are at the end of their rope, their life could very well end by suicide or death with your decision. After hundreds of hearings, I still can still feel the pain and emotion with the testimony, and I AM a cold hearted SOB (5th Generation at least!!)
If you can prepare for that many hearing a year and write your own decisions, you are too talented to work for the Federal Government. You should be the CEO of a major corporation or on the Supreme Court. IMHO!
Tigerlaw United States Administrative Law Judge (OGC can STILL disagree, my original comment stated that OGC could kiss my backside, but apparently the word A....S...S... is too ugly for Attorneys and Judges!!)
Thanks. I appreciate the background on the SSA and those that appear before it. Just one question: the SAA writing your decision still has to get your final approval before you sign the order, correct? You don't really cede (my own bad choice of words) any control over to them if you still have editing authority. Whether or not you have the time to edit what is written is likely another matter entirely.
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Post by mercury on Jan 6, 2016 19:53:44 GMT -5
Thanks. I appreciate the background on the SSA and those that appear before it. Just one question: the SAA writing your decision still has to get your final approval before you sign the order, correct? You don't really cede (my own bad choice of words) any control over to them if you still have editing authority. Whether or not you have the time to edit what is written is likely another matter entirely. Yep to all of those points. You have to sign off on it unless you authorize another ALJ to do so. And those concerns re: editing are real.
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