All Locations?

[deadwood]

When I applied to be an ALJ, I selected all locations instead of specifying only a few. I was told this was the "smart" thing to do. I know about dozen or so people who made the cut and also chose all locations.

However, last week, I was speaking with a higher-up in SSA who indicated that listing only a couple of locations would have been the better approach because the applicants who listed specific locations would be contacted first (assuming all other things were equal).

Has anyone else heard anything about the pros vs. cons of listing all locations instead of only a few?

Thanks in advance.

[privateatty]

I share your concern and question, deadwood.

What I don't understand (and I have learned alot here--thanks to all) is if ODAR has openings for East Mooseville and West Coral and no one has put those places down in a geographical preference, why they don't just send a mass email to those folks with a "high enough" total score (whatever that is) and ask them if they'd move? I know for us private folks we gotta pay for the move, but at least we'd be on our way to somewhere. I know I screwed up not putting down more cities and burgs, but what the heck did I know then?

[odarite]

Given that, as far as I know, OPM ranks every candidate who selects a particular location regardless of how many locations they list, "all" is the safer bet. However, before someone lists "all" they had better be sure they really will go to "any". If you are going to be miserable in a big city, don't say you will go to the Bronx. If wide open spaces are your idea of purgatory, don't select Omaha. Although in the past people could transfer fairly readily, that is no longer the case and you could be stuck someplace you really hate for a long time.

In addition, I am not involved in SSA hiring, and therefore my speculation is only that. Unless the person who told you this is involved in hiring ALJs, their speculation is just that, too.

[doctorwho]

I have spoken to numerous (reads as more than 20) sitting ALJs accross a wide (reads as more than 5) variety of agencies. I'm lucky I'm in a position that allows me access to a large group of individuals. Almost unanimously, they encouraged me to select "all" on the application, if my aim was simply to get an ALJ job without concern for where I landed. Odarite is correct in stating that "you better be sure." With regard to how the cert works, however, choosing "all" or choosing every city, was the way to maximize your chances -- I've also checked that with the various personnel types in my agency that do this work all the time.

[aljsouth]

If you really are willing to go anywhere, then it DOES increase your chances. Odarite is correct in that only put down places you want to go, but more is better than less.

I do disagree with any implication that the old transfer system was better. It was totally up to the agency and their favorites got moved, while others did not.

[lee]

I don't know whether selecting "all locations" is a shrewd strategy or not. I was on the old register for about 9 years, and my limited geographic preferences might be a factor in never being selected. (or maybe I am just not qualified). However, I do know first hand about moving in order to take a new job. It takes a tremendous toll on you, as well as your family. You leave friends, relatives, and familiar surroundings. Maybe it turns out to be a good decision, but maybe not. Older family members have difficulty adjusting to your absence, and children that move with you may never fully adjust to the new community and schools.
I do not mean to be depressing, but I have gone thru such a move in order to accept a promotion and have greater job security. Over all, it has been positive. However, no one should discount the price that the entire family pays if they have a strong connection to the community they will be leaving. Good luck to everyone, but make sure that the job which we all prize so much is worth what you are giving up if it requires a major move.

[chris]

Deadwood, I think your SSA contact is confusing different concepts. If a local ODAR office has a choice between someone who checked "all" and someone who checked their city, the local office might prefer the person that prefers their city. But I don't think the local office has a choice. When interviews are scheduled everyone who is at the top of the list for that city, and that includes people who checked only that city and people who checked "all", will be contacted for an interview using the same procedure that SSA always uses. That procedure gives no preference to the number of cities you checked. The choices as to where someone will be assigned are made at SSA home office and their primary concern is getting all the best people, wherever they may wind up.

Privateatty, because many people select "all", there is not normally going to be a shortage of people who want to work in East Mooseville. The folks who select "all", and there are a ton of them, will always be fodder for the poor locations.

There is no question that if you want an ALJ job and truly don't care where you work, selecting "all" was the best thing to do. It greatly increases your chances of getting a position especially if you are a little lower on the list. The problem of course, as aljsouth notes, is that you better be sure you are really willing to work anywhere. Although there are plenty of candidates on this board and the old board who claim they are willing to work anywhere, in my personal life I have never met anyone who was really willing to work anywhere. No matter what your job is, if you don't like the city you are living in, happiness may be hard to find. I realize that our city choices are now frozen but many candidates are still going to have to make some tough decisions if they are offered positions in cities they don't like. You only get to turn down one city....

[judgegal]

Chris is right, the local office doesn't have a choice. When I got my offer last year, I went to the hearing office to check it out. The HOCALJ had no idea that the vacancy would be filled, or that they had made an offer to me.

[chris]

Judgegal, so you're one year in? How do you like it? What do you like most? Least? What surprised you the most?

Chris

[cinderella]

For those of you with families who chose "all" on the geographic preferences- did you really mean it? Would you really move to Puerto Rico for 2-10 years? I personally like Puerto Rico, but not all areas. Would you really move your family to Fargo? NOLA? Can you really afford housing if you have a non financially participating spouse in Manhattan? San Francisco? Can you stand the heat of Tucson (dry or not- it's 117!)? The humidity of Birmingham? Will you really and truly move your family ANYWHERE for this job with no assurance of transfer or "going home?" I chose not to choose all. Even in my application frenzy, I took a moment and thought- man- I can't afford the housing there. Or, hmm, no desire to live there at all. Or, hmm- with that level of winter weather- if I have to drive to remote hearing sites like my ALJs, do, I'd have to get a big ticket SUV or something. I mean, for a good 30 minutes or so, I sweat that list. And, due to manic frenzy of hurrying to finish the darn thing, I think I missed a few good cities I'd never heard of. Paduca? Who knew it's a virtual panacea? I've never even heard of it! I think I chose about 85% of the options. I was really nervous about picking areas of the country that are absolutely foreign to me- don't know about the commute, weather, crime, schools, etc- but I chose some anyway. Just sort of wondering what other folks did. On the other hand, would that we all have this conundrum facing us! Good luck to one and all!!!

Oh, of note: At the WD, several of the folks around me chose just one city! That floored me! "DC" "LA" and I think "San Francisco."

[cinderella]

JustFound- thanks for posting. I was beginning to feel a little nervous about my selection process (although- HOLY COW, it is a smidge premature! ha!). Of note, my HOCALJ said it would be "reckless" to choose ALL if you had a family. His term, not mine. I did "ponder that in my heart" for a long while, though.

[cinderella]

Yes- it is a strange process! And, it sounds even stranger when I try to explain it to someone outside the process. Still, I'm thrilled and honored to have made it this far.

[deadwood]

Thanks for the responses.

P.S. I can live anywhere; the question is for how long?!?! ;D

[aljsouth]

I repeat that all is good if you are willing to go the the first place offered. I did not select all, but placed down a large selection of places I thought I could afford and that my family and I could have a chance of being content. I was an army brat and I know there are a lot more good places in the US than most people will grasp or want to conceed. I encourage you to put aside preconceptions you have, and first admit you do have them. In my long life I have discovered that making a decision from fear is almost always wrong. Those willing to take a risk will gain and those who will not usually will not.

You will probably, if past practice is a guide, be given a chance to narrow your choices. Take a copy of the list with you. Think about it carefully. I love both Manhattan and San Francsico, but had to not list them because of the expense. Most of California seems to be in this position now. For those of you already on west coast you might be able to do it. If you don't have spouse and children it may still be open to you. Consider your personal circumstances.

If you are hired as an ALJ for SSA, then you can place your name on the transfer register after 2 years. This does not mean an automatic trip home. Example: D.C. area for SSA is clogged with people wanting in.

You can put your name on 3 sites on the transfer list. You can get to another area of the country if you really are not happy. Also, you can apply for HOCALJ. Dozens of these positions come open each year and the agency will pay your way to the new location.

You can move to other sites. You are not shackled forever to one place; but it takes a little time and some common sense on your part. You will not move to D.C. or some other very popular sites unless you are in with management in Falls Church. BUT, the rest of this nation is open to you and there are lots of good places to live.

[odarite]

Judgegal wrote that when she went to check out her first duty station, her HOCALJ had not been informed she was appointed. You can pretty much expect this to be true until very shortly before you show up there. You will know before the HOCALJ does. So if you get an offer and accept, it would be courteous of you to call the HOCALJ so that s/he is the first, not the last, to know.

[doctorwho]

aljsouth said:

I repeat that all is good if you are willing to go the the first place offered. I did not select all, but placed down a large selection of places I thought I could afford and that my family and I could have a chance of being content. I was an army brat and I know there are a lot more good places in the US than most people will grasp or want to conceed. I encourage you to put aside preconceptions you have, and first admit you do have them. In my long life I have discovered that making a decision from fear is almost always wrong. Those willing to take a risk will gain and those who will not usually will not.

You will probably, if past practice is a guide, be given a chance to narrow your choices. Take a copy of the list with you. Think about it carefully. I love both Manhattan and San Francsico, but had to not list them because of the expense. Most of California seems to be in this position now. For those of you already on west coast you might be able to do it. If you don't have spouse and children it may still be open to you. Consider your personal circumstances.

If you are hired as an ALJ for SSA, then you can place your name on the transfer register after 2 years. This does not mean an automatic trip home. Example: D.C. area for SSA is clogged with people wanting in.

You can put your name on 3 sites on the transfer list. You can get to another area of the country if you really are not happy. Also, you can apply for HOCALJ. Dozens of these positions come open each year and the agency will pay your way to the new location.

You can move to other sites. You are not shackled forever to one place; but it takes a little time and some common sense on your part. You will not move to D.C. or some other very popular sites unless you are in with management in Falls Church. BUT, the rest of this nation is open to you and there are lots of good places to live.

Well said. If I'm fortunate enough to get selected, I'm going to try to get to the heartland. I'm tired of the right coast (DC) (and can't fathom living on the left coast) although I did pick "all" because without kids my partner and I can pick-up and live anywhere. We look at this as an adventure (should it become a reality) and are ready to risk to see if there is a reward down the line. Who knows what will happen? For me, choosing all is not "reckless," but it can be for some. I guess that's what makes us all different.

[southerner]

I selected all when completing the app form. I don't have any regrets in that selection. It would be an adventure to move elsewhere, even if only for a few years. Similar to doctorwho, my partner and I have no children and we can move easily enough. California, NY, and DC are appealing, but the cost of living there would still be a detriment.

FYI--for those who want to return to their hometown or to a particular city at some point, I am informed that it is easier to move within a region rather than between regions, so you might want to consider that when making a selction of 3 offices. Look up the regions and note which offices are assigned to which region. The reason for that is simple federal government particulars. To move between regions, you will need the approval of the RCALJ in both regions. If you leave one region for another, the first region will lose an FTE and generally this is disfavored. FTE is full-time equivalent. Regions do not like to lose employees, unless they are getting one in return. By staying in the same region, this concern is not needed. But, you will need to keep on the good side of the RCALJ. That means being a team player and putting out a good quantity of decisions.

[Pixie]

While what Southerner says was true at one time, and probably is still true of hardship transfers, I believe the process mentioned above has been superseded by the union contract. Pix.

[judgegal]

chris said:

Judgegal, so you're one year in? How do you like it? What do you like most? Least? What surprised you the most?

Chris

I like finally being selected after being on the register for umpteen years and being interviewed three or four times. I still can't believe it really happened, although the novelty is wearing off.
What I like most is deciding the cases, it's like solving a puzzle, figuring where the claimant fits in to the regulatory scheme. What I like least is the actual hearings. They can be tedious. The unrepresented claimants are inarticulate and can be difficult to deal with. The represented cases are easier when the attorneys are prepared, but many don't do much to earn their fees.
What surprised me most was the degrees of inequality in our country, much greater than I'd realized. So many people have really hard lives, and poor access to medical care. I hope we do slide down that slippery slope to government run medical care. It would help people and also make business more competitive globally.
I find it amusing when people on this board express their concerns about having to relocate to a high cost city. I'm in New York where an ALJ makes about $120,000. Compare that with the average SS disability benefit of $12,000 that the claimants would like to have. I don't understand how they can live in New York, but they do.

[cinderella]

How are the housing costs in NY on your salary- or do you have the benefit of a double income?