Plan B--other jobs --and announcements recently seen

[JudgeKnot]

I don't think it will hurt to comment in a cover letter that you're willing to relocate. I suspect prospective employers have a legitimate, if unspoken, concern about hiring folks who aren't in commuting distance. They might not come out and say it, but if they have a choice between candidate A who lives within 30 minutes, and a slightly better candidate B who lives 500 miles away, with a working spouse, and children, which of them is most likely to accept the job? The easy part in the job search process is applying. Even flying out for an interview doesn't commit you to the job. When the rubber meets the road, and candidate B is given an offer, there are many reasons he could turn it down. Spouse might not want to move. Spouse might have a great job that can't easily be found in New City. B might decide his current job isn't so bad after all. Housing market where they come from might suck, leaving them with the idea of facing two mortgages. They both decide they don't want to uproot the kids from their school. The idea of packing up and moving on their own dime is more than they can take. They've done more research and concluded that New City isn't the utopia they originally thought.

I live in a vacation paradise. It's a city where "everybody" wants to live. I grew up here and had to move away a few times, but was fortunate to come back. When I lived in "the big city" and talked about having moved away from here, people would inevitably ask me why I moved. Well, I moved because that's where the work was. I preferred working in the city to being unemployed in my home town. There's an old saying around here, "A view of the bay is half your pay." We live in a city on a beautiful bay of one of the Great Lakes, and that saying is really true. We have an affordable-housing crisis, because the cost of housing close to the city center is out of reach of the retail clerks and restaurant staff that make the city hum. People who come from outside the area think that moving here will be like a year-round vacation. No, it isn't. Winters can be harsh, and someone from 200 miles south of here doesn't appreciate what it's like to have to get up every morning for three weeks straight, and shovel your driveway. Every. Frickin'. Day. You don't really get to go to a festival every weekend. Don't get me wrong; I love it here for the most part. But I've seen people come here with high expectations, open up a law office, or a coffee shop, or a restaurant, or one of those other things where, "I've always had a dream of having my own little . . ." When January rolls around, and they're scrounging around trying to figure out how to pay the light bill, they realize they didn't have it so bad in Old City.

This is kind of a long way of saying that someone who is hiring is, I think, fully justified in being biased toward someone who is local. They can start in two weeks, without having to relocate. They know the area already, and don't have to overcome culture shock. Their personal lives will be much less disrupted. I'm not trying to take away anything from the other candidates, and I'm certainly not saying they're less worthy or capable of the job. I've been in both camps. When we lived away, the Mrs. and I both dreamed of the day when we could move back, and never thought it would happen before retirement. Until someone actually makes a big move, I don't think there's any way to fully appreciate how it impacts you in the short and long term. We are a much more mobile society than we were a few decades ago, and I assume most attorneys have probably lived in their home town, their college town, their law school town, and then their first-job town, so they've had some exposure to moving. But, I still think that, all other factors being equal, it's easier for the employer to hire the local candidate, and that means the out-of-towner needs to somehow convince the employer that not all other factors are equal.

I was thinking about the concern of seeming desperate. Does that really matter? Are you desperate, or just serious about wanting to make a move to a better career? There should be a way of saying, "I really am interested in this job. I've researched the city and the company. I'm eager to uproot my family and all that we know, spend $5K to $10K to move myself, and sell my home, because I know I'm the perfect fit for this job and you will love me, love me, love me," without seeming desperate, right? If you figure out how to do that, please share! Sharing is caring.

[aljwishhope]

I see this a little differently. I think you are wasting your time and that of hiring folks if announcement specifically states accepting applications from folks in local commuting area only. Most fed jobs get so many apps that you will likely be in the Not qualified prescreening pile very quickly. They have put this requirement in the announcement because they have a reason for it. Announcements are generally written with purpose. In my agency I have even seen them retract and rewrite an announcement for a known applicant (i.e., favorite color must be periwinkle:)

This is a rarely seen requirement - assume they mean it.

It is a clear unambiguous requirement.

It is no different than other limitations such as agency employee only etc.

I would recommend waiting until the agency posts one that you qualify for. The downside of applying for something you do not qualify for is that it might sully your app for the next hiring. In my Office and probably many others when you get down to the ultimate selection it is the same folks voting. Say you make it to that point on both announcement. First one they look and like your qualifications and then for the first time notice you are not in local commuting area( mind you they are probably the ones that argued to add that requirement). Your resume goes to the circular file. Next time you get to the selection committee you are fully qualified and it is you against another candidate. Very close. Then one committee person remembers you as the person arguing as to why they should be considered last time even though they lived in Timbuktu and you asked for local apps.

[desert2beach]

Sept 21, 2017 21:25:20 GMT -5 cboro said:

Sept 21, 2017 11:21:07 GMT -5 buckeyefan said:

In response to an application I filed for another fed job while waiting on next cert, I received an email stating that my application was not forwarded on because I am not within commuting distance. I am willing to relocate on my own dime. Should I be saying this in my cover letter? I haven't been saying it because I thought it made me sound desperate, but I don't want to continue to be rejected solely for that reason. Thanks.

I've worked with many hiring officials and many fear out of town applicants won't accept a position even if offered.  They feel it's more productive to interview (and select from) local applicants.  I'm not sure if putting something in your cover letter will alleviate that fear. 

I've been involved in some hiring decisions and my experience has been a bit different. I've had hiring officials ask me to reach out to candidates to "remind" them that the job is in xx location and that relocation will not be paid. I then asked if they were still interested. It was only after I received an affirmative "no" that we stopped considering that individual.

For example, in one hiring we had an individual who's cover letter specifically said that they were applying to work for DOJ in Texas.  Both agency and location were incorrect. I was instructed to continue considering the individual until they affirmatively declined interest in our position.

[JudgeKnot]

I agree with @aljwishope that, if being within commuting distance is a requirement or condition noted in the JOA, then don't try to convince them that they should consider someone who needs to relocate. From the original question, I didn't see that the posting included the commuting requirement. I thought it was not mentioned until the rejection email. If that is a requirement, then it would behoove the agency to make it open and obvious in the JOA.

[aljwishhope]

Sept 22, 2017 7:10:22 GMT -5 JudgeKnot said:

I agree with @aljwishope that, if being within commuting distance is a requirement or condition noted in the JOA, then don't try to convince them that they should consider someone who needs to relocate. From the original question, I didn't see that the posting included the commuting requirement. I thought it was not mentioned until the rejection email. If that is a requirement, then it would behoove the agency to make it open and obvious in the JOA.

when writing I was recalling a recent job announcement that said local commuting area only. You are right. The JOA should give notice.

[bayou]

I think that JudgeKnot hits the legit concerns on the head and I would add one more. I work in a rural area and when we hire, we are overloaded with resumes from attorneys across the U.S., many of whom live in large metro areas. They have no clue of the culture shock they will endure when they come to a place where the only shopping is at Walmart, 50% of the clothing sold is camouflage, and the nice place to eat is Chili's.

The fact is, most of those applicants have no intention of staying at this job and are just trying to get their foot in the door or they didn't take the time to restrict the geographical preferences in USAJOBS and their resume goes out to every job regardless of location, meaning they have no intention of even interviewing. Given that it takes 6-8 months to wind through the hiring process, it is extremely disruptive to have attorneys come in for a year or less and leave.

[foghorn]

"We live in a city on a beautiful bay of one of the Great Lakes, and that saying is really true."
Wow--Detroit? Toledo? Though those towns don't seem to lack affordable housing.

[moopigsdad]

Those two cities you mention wouldn't be on a bay foghorn. I can almost be sure he is chatting about Traverse City, MI.

[foghorn]

Just kidding--My folks are from Detroit, which can be said to be bay....ish. Toledo encompasses Harbor Point which is kinda sort a bay-ish--hey, it's near PutIn Bay! Then there's Cleveland, a Bay city if ever there was.

For all we know, with all that snow clearing, Judge Knot is talking about Ishpeming, beloved of Sonny Eliot! Or, for that matter, Green Bay Wisconsin, which is on a bay (been there in dead of winter and they certainly have snow there).

[foghorn]

My bad: it's Ishpeming's big sister, Marquette that's on the Bai eh?
Or there's Sandusky and of course the eponymous Bay City itself. Lot's to love up there.

[foghorn]

What I did was mention in my letter how I'd planned on an apartment, that the spouse was on board, that I was used to the drive time the weekend would involve, mentioned my many visits to the are,(and If I had friends and relatives in the area would be inclined to mention that to show that I was, if not a homeboy ex pat, next best thing--i.e. subtext message; nothing to fear. I won't hate ya'll's city.

Try to remind them that at one time nearly all of them were from somewhere other than the DC Metro area?

I haven't seen a job that asked for someone in commuting distance but of course if it wasn't my area I would either a) not apply or b) tell them how much their job was a good fit(but only if it was) and ask them to hold on to the materials should they find that the local talent pool was not quite their fit.

Does the same apply to age? Many of us are over 40, some over 50, a few over 60--I wouldn't doubt there's a board member or three over 70--mention why we'd be willing to change?

[We live in times when the same hiring committee members might well vote for someone over those ages to be president but be nervous about hiring someone for what is likely a less demanding job than President (at least as of 2016), one of the most demanding jobs there is.]

Thoughts on the age thing?
How it plays, how to play it?

[phoenixrisingALJ]

Uh- I think this is too much. Kind of comes across as desperate- no offense meant.

Perhaps add a sentence to a cover letter indicating that if selected you intend to relocate. If you are selected for an interview you can clarify/expand at the end of the interview if it has not already been addressed.

[JudgeKnot]

foghorn I'm absolutely convinced that ageism is a real thing. I'll just say that I'm over the 40-something age group, and when I was looking for work I was certain that age was a factor that affected my ability to get a job. I think it's very short-sighted on the employers' part to be biased against someone in the 50+ crowd. We're living longer folks. We're taking care of ourselves. Most of us have already raised our kids and don't have them to hold us back from making life-changes. We've spent decades in the work place and learned not just what employers expect, but how to meet those expectations. We have a lot of life left in us, and have developed excellent work skills.

For you young'uns, don't take this as judgment that any of you are lacking in the skills. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just kvetching because I think a lot of employers just dismiss older applicants out-of-hand, thinking we're stuck in our ways, aren't nimble enough to adapt to change, we don't have the energy to keep up with the demands of the work. It's tough to be painted with a broad brush and judged based upon general assumptions, instead of considered on our own merits.

[ok1956]

Sept 23, 2017 19:29:10 GMT -5 JudgeKnot said:

foghorn I'm absolutely convinced that ageism is a real thing. I'll just say that I'm over the 40-something age group, and when I was looking for work I was certain that age was a factor that affected my ability to get a job. I think it's very short-sighted on the employers' part to be biased against someone in the 50+ crowd. We're living longer folks. We're taking care of ourselves. Most of us have already raised our kids and don't have them to hold us back from making life-changes. We've spent decades in the work place and learned not just what employers expect, but how to meet those expectations. We have a lot of life left in us, and have developed excellent work skills.

For you young'uns, don't take this as judgment that any of you are lacking in the skills. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just kvetching because I think a lot of employers just dismiss older applicants out-of-hand, thinking we're stuck in our ways, aren't nimble enough to adapt to change, we don't have the energy to keep up with the demands of the work. It's tough to be painted with a broad brush and judged based upon general assumptions, instead of considered on our own merits.

I have to say as frustrating as the OPM process may be and as mysterious as SSA hiring may appear each seem to disregard age. In my class at training we had people ranging from 40ish to 60ish with no distinction made among us. Other than the insiders who already knew the law and amazed us all haha (and were always willing to help us NODARs)

[phoenixrisingALJ]

As someone who joined the Fed workforce as an older person- I have to say that I think most government managers do try not to age discriminate. I know that is not universal throughout the government- but I think most managers focus on skills you bring as opposed to age. But the big thing I will say is get in the door- then worry about getting to job you really want. Also don't assume you know the job you want. There are so many in government- give the job you get a chance.

[foghorn]

Sept 23, 2017 17:34:13 GMT -5 phoenixrisingALJ said:

Uh- I think this is too much. Kind of comes across as desperate- no offense meant.

Perhaps add a sentence to a cover letter indicating that if selected you intend to relocate. If you are selected for an interview you can clarify/expand at the end of the interview if it has not already been addressed.

Given what the commenters said on that hiring panels fear that those who have to relocate won't once faced with the decision I thought maybe I needed to lay out for them why working and going home weekends was not a biggie for me that I'd thought it out seriously and judiciously.  

Next one I'll tone down. As with resume's always a too much? Too little? And the Murphy's law of resume--the person who reads your resume will always be in the camp opposite the one you pitched the resume towards.

No offense meant--just maybe bent the nail hitting it too many times on the head.

[Pixie]

They will only consider applicants from the local area, no matter how many times you hit that nail. If it says local area, or words to that effect, that is what they want. In his above post, bayou gave some of the reasons. As a hiring official, the last thing I want to do is to hire a candidate and have her go back home after being trained by our office. I have lost that FTE, and another may not be available for a couple of years. Pixie

[aljwishhope]

Another reason they might post local only is because they already have a pool of local candidates.

For example I know attorneys working as contractors (for years at a time) for CFPB, 9/11 commission and Veterans.

I would imagine they would have 1st shot at inside jobs but at the same time they are not status candidates. So limit hire to locals instead.

I do not know how folks find these contract jobs. Many I know previously were doing document review work and maybe their agency got a government contract.

Many many years ago I got a government contract job the old fashioned way from the help wanted ads in washington post.

[rhd]

One of the major reasons I started this trek when I was otherwise deep into retirement planning (see how I did that without mentioning my age?) is that a person I worked with was hired by ODAR at age 70. I think that the Feds, especially, attempt not to violate age discrimination laws. There was plenty of grey hair in my DC group.

In particular, judging calls upon one's experience, wisdom, and insight as much as it does raw knowledge of the law. These can only be acquired in one way that I know of, and that is to get old practicing. New young judges tend, in my experience, to be more arrogant, rash, and less forgiving - more "judgmental" if you will - than those with some years under their belt. This does not mean that a 30-something can't make a good judge. It does not mean that The Ancients all make good judges (I wasn't impressed by that 70-year-old).

It only means that I think it becomes an easier and more natural function when backed up by some years. And given that 65 is the new 47, there's no reason to think that ODAR can't be a fine second career starting in one's 50s or 60s.

Note the absence of an apostrophe in 50s and 60s.

[Pixie]

Sept 25, 2017 11:41:27 GMT -5 rhd said:

One of the major reasons I started this trek when I was otherwise deep into retirement planning (see how I did that without mentioning my age?) is that a person I worked with was hired by ODAR at age 70. I think that the Feds, especially, attempt not to violate age discrimination laws. There was plenty of grey hair in my DC group.

In particular, judging calls upon one's experience, wisdom, and insight as much as it does raw knowledge of the law. These can only be acquired in one way that I know of, and that is to get old practicing. New young judges tend, in my experience, to be more arrogant, rash, and less forgiving - more "judgmental" if you will - than those with some years under their belt. This does not mean that a 30-something can't make a good judge. It does not mean that The Ancients all make good judges (I wasn't impressed by that 70-year-old).

It only means that I think it becomes an easier and more natural function when backed up by some years. And given that 65 is the new 47, there's no reason to think that ODAR can't be a fine second career starting in one's 50s or 60s.

Note the absence of an apostrophe in 50s and 60s.

Thank you. It appears we have mastered this apostrophe thing. Well some of us have. May be time for another punctuation mark. I have one in mind I would like to get some thoughts on.