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Post by ssaogc on May 14, 2023 4:23:02 GMT -5
Not hard to know who wishes us ill and who looks out for us. I am always dismayed to see how my co workers support those that do not have our best interests in mind |
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Post by wandernotlost on May 14, 2023 13:28:48 GMT -5
As does a significant portion of our citizenry, it's pretty amazing to me how a huge segment of our population votes against their own interests. You can fool some people all of the time...
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Post by jagvet on May 15, 2023 21:10:03 GMT -5
As does a significant portion of our citizenry, it's pretty amazing to me how a huge segment of our population votes against their own interests. You can fool some people all of the time... Maybe if federal employees were a bit more humble, the citizenry wouldn't support getting rid of them. The Postal Service really worked on customer service, and I think I have seen improvements over the years. The IRS had to be forced to be more helpful by congress. That's seems to have worked, too. Employees who think of their jobs as permanent and property are not as likely to gain sympathy over those who know that they are public trusts (and act accordingly). I had to call a Social Security OHO office this morning because of an internet problem. I had to listen to an invitation to call another number, a lengthy COVID lecture and other nonsense before I even had a chance to dial the extension. Two minutes wasted. Now think how the public feels. |
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Post by lp101 on May 16, 2023 8:24:47 GMT -5
As does a significant portion of our citizenry, it's pretty amazing to me how a huge segment of our population votes against their own interests. You can fool some people all of the time... Maybe if federal employees were a bit more humble, the citizenry wouldn't support getting rid of them. The Postal Service really worked on customer service, and I think I have seen improvements over the years. The IRS had to be forced to be more helpful by congress. That's seems to have worked, too. Employees who think of their jobs as permanent and property are not as likely to gain sympathy over those who know that they are public trusts (an act accordingly). I had to call a Social Security OHO office this morning because of an internet problem. I had to listen to an invitation to call another number, a lengthy COVID lecture and other nonsense before I even had a chance to dial the extension. Two minutes wasted. Now think how the public feels. Yes, arrogant federal employees should definitely be fired because someone was inconvenienced for two minutes. Thank goodness that long hold times or unnecessary hold messages don’t happen at literally every large organization, public or private, that you contact in the United States. |
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Post by balzac on May 16, 2023 9:55:34 GMT -5
As does a significant portion of our citizenry, it's pretty amazing to me how a huge segment of our population votes against their own interests. You can fool some people all of the time... Maybe if federal employees were a bit more humble, the citizenry wouldn't support getting rid of them. The Postal Service really worked on customer service, and I think I have seen improvements over the years. The IRS had to be forced to be more helpful by congress. That's seems to have worked, too. Employees who think of their jobs as permanent and property are not as likely to gain sympathy over those who know that they are public trusts (an act accordingly). I had to call a Social Security OHO office this morning because of an internet problem. I had to listen to an invitation to call another number, a lengthy COVID lecture and other nonsense before I even had a chance to dial the extension. Two minutes wasted. Now think how the public feels. This is one of the weirder, more out of touch comments I've seen on this board. Yes, the problem with federal employees is that they are not "humble" enough. Right. The automated menus you're compelled to listened to when calling into an OHO, those two minutes wasted, is not a big deal and is not germane to anything. And the humility or lack thereof of individual employees is similarly irrelevant. We are talking about institutional and systemic concerns here. |
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Post by lp101 on May 16, 2023 11:50:56 GMT -5
Also, they don’t want to fire federal employees because the employees aren’t humble. They want to fire them because the employees aren’t hewing to their preferred agenda. They want to fire IRS agents because those agents might audit them and their wealthy donors. They want to fire SEC ALJs because those ALJs are ruling against their buddies. And closer to home, they want to fire SSA ALJs because we award benefits too often (that is, ever). They couldn’t care less that people wait too long on hold; that’s a feature, not a bug. If they truly cared about that sort of thing they would have fully funded the Agency years ago.
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Post by ssaogc on May 16, 2023 14:42:12 GMT -5
The population in the US has exploded in past 50 years. In 1967 federal employees comprised 1.1 percent of the population and by 2018 a mere O.6 percent and if you have been around since 2018 you know that these numbers are even smaller now and hiring has been little to none. As a workforce we are doing more with less in a much more complicated and demanding society. Just think of how much fewer applications for old age benefits or disability benefits (SSI did not come about until early 70s I understand) were being processed with significantly more staff Than we are processing today? You cannot get a person on the phone because there is no person to pick up the phone. That person retired and never got replaced. The agency continues to push people on line. Why? Because they can receive 10 applications that way instead of the two that they would be able to receive via a face to face application intake. The folks doing it online run into issues, have questions and of course want to talk to someone but that someone is not available. In the end we as the workforce are to blame for all of the issues. We are running an ever growing deficit and do not collect all of the taxes, solution? Cut the staffing at the IRS, this means less auditing, less collections and happy political donors. I had an issue with the IRS due to an error. Took me six months to get corrected, numerous hours on hold. Three different offices that did not talk to each other and needed to coordinate to solve my problem. I did not blame the IRS or their employees, I know they were trying to do what they could. Recently they were approved for significant hiring and all you heard was that 87k gun toting agents were going to descend on the American public. To collect taxes? The majority of folks earn so little they take the standard deduction, on whose behalf is this boogie irs man message being directed? ourpublicservice.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/FedFigures_FY18-Workforce.pdf |
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Post by greyhound on May 16, 2023 21:03:52 GMT -5
Not hard to know who wishes us ill and who looks out for us. I am always dismayed to see how my co workers support those that do not have our best interests in mind I am sorry, and maybe I am missing your meaning, but that seems to be very partisan thinking. We should be citizens first and government employees second (actually, for me, it's government employee like 20th). There should be times when we support policies which might hurt our particular interests because we believe that the greater good would be served by them. That's what altruism is all about. That's why we got into government service, for altruistic, not self-serving reasons...right? |
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Post by jagvet on May 17, 2023 10:54:34 GMT -5
I think that the people here who say that inconvenience and arrogance should just be tolerated are just proving my point. The public doesn't like most government employees because of actual bad experiences. Bad apples spoil the bushel of good apples. I am not blaming federal employees. Good federal managers can make a difference. A Harvard Business Review made positive suggestions to help civil servants better serve civilians. hbr.org/2014/11/why-government-workers-are-harder-to-motivate |
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Post by wandernotlost on May 17, 2023 11:34:32 GMT -5
I think that the people here who say that inconvenience and arrogance should just be tolerated are just proving my point. The public doesn't like most government employees because of actual bad experiences. Bad apples spoil the bushel of good apples. I am not blaming federal employees. Good federal managers can make a difference. A Harvard Business Review made positive suggestions to help civil servants better serve civilians. hbr.org/2014/11/why-government-workers-are-harder-to-motivate |
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Post by wandernotlost on May 17, 2023 11:39:17 GMT -5
It sort of felt like you were blaming federal employees for being inconvenienced by a two-minute phone message, which is odd since we (as rank and file employees) have basically no control over this (if you think you are frustrated, think about how we feel having to deal with this not just once in a while but every day, both at work and otherwise). Having said that,any big organization, such as say Walmart, is going to have every kind of employee from excellent to terrible, the federal workforce is no different. Most of us are just trying to do our best and being blamed for this kind of thing is a real morale killer, and honestly, it just feels unfair and petty.
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Post by jagvet on May 17, 2023 13:23:28 GMT -5
You're missing my point. If people perceive that federal agencies don't care about the public they serve, then they have no compunction to cutting of budgets and staff. The two-minute wait, INCLUDING IRRELEVANT COVID WARNINGS THAT ARE NOT CURRENT POLICY (!) is only annoying to me as an employee. Imagine how a claimant feels when all he wants to know is where to park for a hearing or to get word that he's going to be late. I'm sure it's worse if he doesn't know any employee's extension.
Instead of blaming voters or the public for our woes, let's commit to be more polite, more helpful, and less bureaucratic. Here's one suggestion: "If you know your extension, you may dial it at any time." Gee, that's something that every business has (and some government agencies). Here's another: How about routinely asking claimants who need a supplemental if they can come back next Tuesday at 3:00 instead of throwing it back in the pile for 3 months?
How about a simple, "What type of hearing do you want? Phone, video or in-person? if you don't answer, it will be phone" instead of bureaucratic rules, forms and gotchas (e.g., You didn't waive VTC within 30 days, so you can't switch to in-person).
How about honoring the claimant's choice of hearing format instead of ignoring it until a rep complains?
How about forwarding an OTR to the judge immediately instead of after the rep sends two letters?
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Post by arkstfan on May 23, 2023 1:44:59 GMT -5
I think that the people here who say that inconvenience and arrogance should just be tolerated are just proving my point. The public doesn't like most government employees because of actual bad experiences. Bad apples spoil the bushel of good apples. I am not blaming federal employees. Good federal managers can make a difference. A Harvard Business Review made positive suggestions to help civil servants better serve civilians. hbr.org/2014/11/why-government-workers-are-harder-to-motivateI missed who said it should be tolerated. The public has elected people who say government doesn’t work and strive to prove it. We’ve reduced the government workforce over a span when population has doubled. At Social Security the agency mostly deals with older Americans. 2020 census counted just over 55 million people 65 or older, an increase of more than 20 million people in 20 years and the agency has 1500 fewer full time employees. When you look at work years, total hours worked by all full and part time staff including overtime worked, the agency has lost the equivalent of 3700 full time employees. I know of no one happy about wait times, the phone issues, the longer processing times but it is what the public has chosen and party in power doesn’t much impact it because it’s not a critical issue with voters until it’s their ox that is gored and the reaction too often is to bombard staff with vulgarities and double down on supporting further cutting resources. The Harvard Business Review isn’t wrong on a number of points. Public facing employees are battered by a public that increasingly believes they can magically get their way yelling and cursing. BUT that’s not novel to government. Spend a few minutes talking to people working in retail, food service, airline industry, or hotels. Most get it worse. There is a reason why public facing jobs are hard to fill and unlike private sector our public facing people have benefits and don’t get jerked around having to work until midnight and then report at 5:30 am to open the joint and don’t deal with managers getting perverse pleasure scheduling them to work the day of their sisters wedding that they requested unpaid leave for four months ago. The leadership changes are an issue because the last two changes featured dramatic shifts in goals and priorities. They are correct we are infected by management that wants numbers to prove their skill and accomplishments in leadership while we do things that don’t easily lend themselves to numbers. You’ve got goofballs who think a good employee can resolve calls in X minutes and pressure staff to do that when a good employee may need much more time because people often need to make complicated decisions between various alternatives with no clear cut right answer unless you know the day you or your spouse will die and have reliable information about inflation, interest rates and market returns for the remainder of your life and accurate predictions of health will help too. Doing it RIGHT quite likely means no bonus if bonuses are even available that budget cycle and “poor performance” by not churning and burning can mean no promotion. Hard to get good telephone interaction when you’re being pushed to get the citizen off the damn call quickly so you can hit an arbitrary goal. Older workforce and the related experience is mentioned as a positive but the preceding section actually reveals it isn’t because doing it right takes time. There is no measure available to reflect someone is the go to who knows how to fix messes and get something processed correctly when it doesn’t quite fit the template. Naturally Harvard article goes there bemoaning employee protections. Not unlike the people who scoff at the need for vaccines because who ever gets polio, measles or whooping cough these days. Those protections exist because a decision was made that the public should be served by the best available employees instead of cleaning house and starting over after each new person is sworn in. We made a decision that maybe people hired to serve the public maybe shouldn’t be in an environment where they could be squeezed to kick back part of their salary or become a tool to exact political revenge. The biggest issue disciplining and firing government workers is failure to do the manager job of documenting problems and following the discipline rules. Author is in academia. Anyone who thinks firing government employees is hard has never tried to fire a tenured professor. Then we are told lack of financial incentives (bonuses) is a problem. Well author pointed out difficulties measuring good performance. How do you award bonuses fairly without measuring performance? I know some civilian US Army employees. Cash bonuses? Yawn. Getting awarded 5 days bonus annual leave is what drives them to do extras to get noticed. If we were in it for the cash most of us wouldn’t be in government. Bad ol public sector unions. Last few years have taken me from skeptic to hardcore union person because I distrust upper levels of management. I’ve had no local issues but nope don’t trust those above. Do something to earn my trust. Author does nail that motivations are different. In my office you want to get people angry? Do something that jerks around a claimant. Yeah lot of claimants are frustrating. Spraining eyeballs from rolling them when people don’t know what grade their child is in, what accommodations are given, declare they have to shift positions every 180 seconds, have bulging muscles and allege can’t lift anything heavier than a fork. But don’t screw then over by not updating the record or make them wait because VHR can’t show up on time because there’s a wreck every single day making you late. Public generally hates us but we still want to do right by them. |
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Post by privateatty on May 23, 2023 17:21:37 GMT -5
Not hard to know who wishes us ill and who looks out for us. I am always dismayed to see how my co workers support those that do not have our best interests in mind I am sorry, and maybe I am missing your meaning, but that seems to be very partisan thinking. We should be citizens first and government employees second (actually, for me, it's government employee like 20th). There should be times when we support policies which might hurt our particular interests because we believe that the greater good would be served by them. That's what altruism is all about. That's why we got into government service, for altruistic, not self-serving reasons...right? Altruistic is good, self-serving is bad. I don't want to pay all my taxes and do a shell game with my money, that's self-serving and that's bad. Right? Is your "particular interest" an agency that you work for that is grossly underfunded? It seems to me more than a little hypocritical to devote one's career to government service and in the same breath state that it is better to be underfunded and pay down the deficit--or afford tax breaks to those in the highest tax bracket. Now, to be fair, I work with Judges who believe as you do. I just don't understand them. The issue really isn't the size of the agency, it's paying "tax" dollars on folks and programs you don't believe in--including the federal government. And as to JagVet, I would say that "...you can't always get what you want,."..well, you know the rest. |
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Post by jagvet on May 24, 2023 12:29:55 GMT -5
Quite an interesting discussion here. I'm bowing out at this point in the thread.
Parting comment: I met an old high school friend recently. After 45 years of practicing law, he retired and became a customer service rep at his airport. He loves the job, he loves the people, he puts passengers at ease during very tense situations with understanding and gentle humor. After doing it two years, the airline gave him an award for customer satisfaction. No money--just a certificate. He was very grateful and still loves his job. He's just as old as I am (old).
I meet people like that all the time. Some people will curse at them, and others will smile and ask for help. When I had to travel a lot before COVID, I found that if I was nice to airline gate agents and CS reps, they would be extra helpful to me, even getting me on "sold out" flights and bumping me to business class no charge when the rules said no. I think it's the same principle at work in OHO.
We should really try hard to be civil servants, not just federal employees.
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Post by foghorn on May 24, 2023 17:49:40 GMT -5
Meanwhile this site exists, in part, for all those trying to get in but still on the outside.
Feds, think of us. If you don't like it, then quit your job and give those trying to get in. Look at our poor, waif like faces, noses pressed against the glass longing for GSA ambiance.
Then maybe decide..........well, it ain't so bad after all.
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Post by arkstfan on May 25, 2023 3:14:23 GMT -5
Quite an interesting discussion here. I'm bowing out at this point in the thread. Parting comment: I met an old high school friend recently. After 45 years of practicing law, he retired and became a customer service rep at his airport. He loves the job, he loves the people, he puts passengers at ease during very tense situations with understanding and gentle humor. After doing it two years, the airline gave him an award for customer satisfaction. No money--just a certificate. He was very grateful and still loves his job. He's just as old as I am (old). I meet people like that all the time. Some people will curse at them, and others will smile and ask for help. When I had to travel a lot before COVID, I found that if I was nice to airline gate agents and CS reps, they would be extra helpful to me, even getting me on "sold out" flights and bumping me to business class no charge when the rules said no. I think it's the same principle at work in OHO. We should really try hard to be civil servants, not just federal employees. My perception is we should try be civil servants is along the lines of fans being upset at the referees when their football team is trailing after five turnovers. A services provider is off the list after a second ALJ complaint. Not complaints about ALJ issues but ALJ’s livid over treatment of claimants. Local management was quick on seeking resolution and backed by regional. I’ve worked varying lengths of time as an ALJ in three offices over 13 years. My observation is ALJs have a high “pain tolerance” in matters that only impact them and essentially no tolerance for poor treatment of claimants. The situations you cited would more aptly fit a Senior Executive Service board because those were things outside the control of ALJs, SA’s and AA’s who are the bulk of the user pool. We don’t do quality assurance or performance reviews of field offices or call centers and they aren’t in the same command chain with our local management unit you near the top of the agency structure. Not excusing nor accepting less than professional conduct but I would not go to the produce manager at Walmart to address an issue in the tire and lube center. I can’t speak to conduct outside of offices I’ve had direct experience with but I know that rare and I mean rare instances of OHO staff not providing appropriate service has been met with documented reprimands in two instances and a suspension in an egregious incident. Your point is valid but shared with an audience that’s likely among the least in need of reminding within the agency or I’ve been lucky to serve in three unicorn offices. |
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