What are they looking for......

[apppending]

I am new to this game, so please bear with me. I was able to upload my application before it closed (unlike last May ). So what are they looking for in the application? What are the key words I keep hearing about? Is there a specific format they are looking for in the answers? And what happens next? Thanks and good luck!

[californiagirl]

Appending, I am new, too, and like you, made it in time this time and missed it last time. I would like to know more, too, but I think those who were successful last time are bound by a confidentiality vow in some areas and they may not be able to tell us very much. I think we just have to wait to see if we make the first cut.

Good luck, too!

[belgrade]

This forum has TONS on info that will answer your questions in detail, including but not limited to the most recent threads posted in the last several days, when the OPM re-opened the ALJ examination. Search them and you will find out... The only thing that confidentiality precludes us from telling you is exact questions posed to us at the SI or the test given to us on the WD.

[californiagirl]

Thank you, belgrade, you are correct. I have been reading the "Written Exam" and "ALJ Exam" threads and they have been very informative--and they will be very helpful if I get to that stage. All of you are very kind to share what you know with those of us just starting this process.

[apppending]

OK - thanks - I was looking for what disqualified folks last opening and saw some answers on the forum already.

[belgrade]

No problem, californiagirl. We are all in the same boat. The fact that I took the whole ALJ examination last year and got my final numerical ranking (i.e., score) doesn't mean anything. I am still not an ALJ. You have the same chance, if not better, to succeed. Probably better because there is SO much more info out there now then more than a year ago... The only "advantage" I have over you or other folks who are "new" is that I can say "been there, done that"... and nothing else.

[valkyrie]

The application aspect of the hiring process is the big gamble. If you take an ODAR insider like me, I probably maxed out with my score of 67+ when you compare my score to others with my same general legal career path, but with significantly greater experience. I knew of people with much greater experience than me who actually scored below me. Was it my application responses, the written exam, or the structured interview that got me a great score? Did the more qualified people screw up? I have no idea. I felt good about the interview and the exam. As everyone on this board can tell you, only OPM knows! Unless someone files a FOIA to see the actual grading of their application, exam, and interview, we can only guess. On the other hand, we know that ODAR will look beyond the arbitrary scores to select the most qualified candidates on the certificate, as they should. Reports from the training cadre suggest that this year's classes have been superior to any others they have seen.

[pm]

This year's new scores are certainly going to be interesting. Theories are already flying as to whether the scores will be collectively better or wrose than last year's scores. Certainly many people had months to fine tune their applications which should help maximize some scores, but I know some people who were still caught off guard and at least a half dozen who didn't get their applications in this year. I'm not sure anyone knows where the bulk of this year's applicants are coming from either. Are they mostly federal employees?

[californiagirl]

I am a senior attorney at ODAR. I don't know whether that is a plus or minus....

[californiagirl]

Thank you, Pix, for the info, which is very encouraging to me (if I make it to a certification), as I have been very productive for all the years I've been at ODAR. I will be patient.

[decadealj]

As usual, Pixie nails the issue. For all the insider-outsider discussion, the fact that you have established a professional reputation counts both ways, if you were a non-productive AO twelve years ago, someone will remember it- if you were a terrific regional attorney (like a female ALJ in Minneapolis was), it ain't going to hurt when the selecting official starts looking at the order the cities are going to be filled. The one observation I can make from afar is that the last "hire" contained a significant number of HODs ( AAA comes to mind who I believe returned to her former ODAR office in Kansas City).

[hooligan]

Aug 7, 2008 8:13:04 GMT -5 Pixie said:

Aug 5, 2008 20:45:00 GMT -5 californiagirl said:

I am a senior attorney at ODAR. I don't know whether that is a plus or minus....

Assuming your score is good enough for you to make a certificate, the job as a Sr. Attorney will be a big plus, as long as you have done a good job and have been productive while at OHA/ODAR. Pix.

I hate to be a contrarian, but there are a large number of former Senior Attorneys who would disagree with you on this point. Admittedly changes at the top have taken strides to welcome more judges with agency specific backgrounds. However, there are still a large number of sitting judges who feel that actual trial experience is far more important than having written decisions made by others. These judges are often included in the selection panels. I believe it is nearly impossible to predict how a specific panel is going to react to specific backgrounds.

The bottom line is that when a candidate goes into the selection process, there are no guarantees and any predictions about status importance are no more than guesses. Each candidate has strengths and weaknesses and you have to count on the fact there will be quality alternatives and you need to sell yourself and your experience to close the deal. There are no "gimmees." If your strongest selling point is your Senior Attorney background, sell it and don't bother to worry about whether there are willing buyers or not. Senior Attorneys get hired, but not all of them. There is no express policy to either favor or disfavor specific types of backgrounds.

[judicature]

Perhaps not, hooligan, but more than 60% of those attending my ALJ training class came out of ODAR. So the odds have certainly improved over prior years (based on what I have been told).

It certainly didn't hurt some folks to come out of ODAR . . . .

[happy]

Sadly, I must say that, in my experience, a fair number of Senior Attorneys are deluded in thinking that they are doing a good job and their supervisors would not agree. And since supervisors are contacted during the Agency background check, this could be a critical point. Additionally, I know of a few individuals who have high scores and many years of Agency experience who have now been passed over more than once. Often, there is an interpersonal component that rises to the surface to which the individual him/herself may be oblivious. It is imperative that an ALJ treat others with respect and dignity (not saying that all current ALJs do, of course) and if someone expresses disdain for the paralegals, management and ALJs in his/her office, he/she needn't expect to EVER get selected by SSA. Sorry -- that's just the way it is.

[valkyrie]

I have said it before, if you are a senior attorney you need to bring something else to the table if you want to get selected. Sitting in a local office and showing that you can produce on a consistent basis is not enough. I'm not discounting the possibility of personality conflicts with the wrong people, but you need to put yourself in the Agency's shoes.

There are quite a few SAAs on the register with competitive scores. Everybody knows how arbitrary the scores have been. How do you, as the Agency, decide which SAAs should be selected? You take the SAAs that have management experience first, because they will be most likely to be aware and sympathetic to the Agency goals. Then you take the ones that have other Agency experience, be it OGC, regional positions, a history of multiple special details, etc. Again, these candidates are more likely to be aware of and sympathetic to the Agency goals.

I was passed over by people with lower scores in both of the last certificates. It sucks as much for me as anyone else in the same spot. But the way I look at it, my options are limited, but not hopeless. I can ensure my numbers are good to eliminate non-performance as a reason I was passed over. I can do what I can to get additional experience within the Agency on special details or other voluntary postings. I can also look at outside experience, such as pro bono work.

There is little that we can do if there is a judge out there shooting us down because of all the old prejudices. There is little we can do if someone, somewhere, in management has it in for us. If you have convinced yourself that you are a victim, it is going to show up in an interview.

[hooligan]

Aug 7, 2008 18:45:13 GMT -5 judicature said:

Perhaps not, hooligan, but more than 60% of those attending my ALJ training class came out of ODAR. So the odds have certainly improved over prior years (based on what I have been told).

It certainly didn't hurt some folks to come out of ODAR . . . .

I think the high number of Agency people in the current class is more a reflection of the high number who applied rather than a selection preference. I know in my Region, there are many Senior Attorneys who were passed over. I also do not believe the high numbers represent a universal attitude of the members of the selection panel. My advice is to take nothing for granted and sell what you have going for you as best you can.

BTW - can anyone confirm the 60% number? I thought I had heard that the number on the cert was 60 total, not 60% and I have not seen the stats related to the actual selections. Total hires this year were 189. 60% would suggest 113 agency hires. Is that verified?

Note that your class may have been the one that they pushed as many of the Agency people into as possible. The other classes may not have contained such a pronounced proportion.

[atlantis]

RE: the stats

For this most current class of 55 - 23 have agency experience.

[judicature]

Well, I counted as people introduced themselves, but this is an anonymous board.... As Atlantis points out, obviously there was some variation. I am not suggesting a selection preference in favor of folks with agency experience, but the numbers (whether you use those provided by Atlantis or me) do undercut the idea that agency experience hurts your chances in the current environment. Of course as others have pointed out, agency experience cuts both ways . . . .

[flannery]

I don't ask for a special leg up or anything, but it is so heartening to think that Agency-specific experience is at least being weighed, along with other experience.
Flannery

[southernmiss]

As a Senior Attorney who did not make it last time because I did not put the date I joined the Bar, I am hoping to make it this time. I figure it is about 50% what I put on the AR and 50% luck in who is grading it. I had time to finesse the answers although I had two more to go when the exam came out. Still, even after reading it twice, I could have made another dumb mistake.

In this area, 2 Senior Attorneys out of 4 became judges-one's score was too low and mine was "incomplete" (see above). One other Attorney Advisor made the certs but did not get hired.

As to production, I assume that it is a quality that they are looking for, as is the ability to get along with managment. If I were doing the hiring, it is sure something I would want.

Anyhow, I hope they move faster on this. I want to find out if I made the first cut this time.