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Post by bagelone on Feb 9, 2023 9:13:15 GMT -5
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Post by Gaidin on Feb 9, 2023 9:40:40 GMT -5
Oomph... 6 cases last year.... |
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Post by nylawyer on Feb 9, 2023 13:18:02 GMT -5
There are a lot of issues here, but there are very legitimate reasons why HOCALJ and other true management ALJs (not including NHC ALJs for these purposes) should be doing less cases.
They do in fact have numerous, time consuming activities that line ALJs just don't have.
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Post by FrogEsq on Feb 9, 2023 13:42:22 GMT -5
There are a lot of issues here, but there are very legitimate reasons why HOCALJ and other true management ALJs (not including NHC ALJs for these purposes) should be doing less cases. They do in fact have numerous, time consuming activities that line ALJs just don't have. Whole-heartedly agree. I admit, I have only seen the position from 'down the hall'. But, that was close enough. Seriously. I am so grateful that we have such a qualified and dedicated HOCALJ |
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Post by bagelone on Feb 9, 2023 14:00:46 GMT -5
Doing slightly less may be justified, but there aren't legitimate reasons for HOCALJs doing substantially less. Many of us remember when HOCALJs led their offices by example. ALJs aren't subject to performance appraisals, and HODs allegedly handle most hearing office oversight. If there is busy work, maybe there needs to be pushback. Remote work (and hearings) will continue, even as agency structure lags behind. The ten regional offices are a decades-old anachronism, but a structure that excuses many people from doing face to face public service, and they will fight to the bitter end to retain their special status. Let alone the elephant graveyard that is Headquarters.
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Post by linejudge17 on Feb 9, 2023 15:22:36 GMT -5
HOCALJs receive a 25 to 50% case load reduction to supervise one person (the hearing office director). It's my opinion that your dedicated and qualified HOCALJ should hear more cases to best serve the public. Receiving multiple emails from region and HQ, as well as occasionally signing and forwarding correspondences to line judges like directives and reprimands that are drafted by HR and/or legal, are not sufficiently taxing duties to justify such a significant case load reduction when claimants are waiting for decisions.
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Post by superalj on Feb 9, 2023 21:59:04 GMT -5
Idk. While I don’t think NHC ALJs should get reduced expectations, I think it’s appropriate for HOCALJs. NHC ALJs should be expected to do more cases than hearing office ALJs since they have their own DWs that not only write, but do prehearing reviews. File review is where the rubber hits the road in my opinion as I think it’s the most time consuming aspect of the job. Good HOCALJs do more than just forward emails-it’s actually a lot of work doing the bidding of OCALJ and region while also running an office. Just ask yourself how many times a HOCALJ spot has opened in your office and no one wanted it. Lol
Finally, I’ll say it again. The quotas or expectations or whatever they call them these days are unrealistic. It’s like comparing apples and oranges. You just can’t compare total dispos for offices in rural states where a person is SOL if they don’t have private health insurance to states like CA and Minnesota that basically have socialized medicine. Those files are just huge especially when a claimants full time job is going to the doctor to build their disability appeal.
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Post by arkstfan on Feb 9, 2023 22:35:34 GMT -5
HOCALJs receive a 25 to 50% case load reduction to supervise one person (the hearing office director). It's my opinion that your dedicated and qualified HOCALJ should hear more cases to best serve the public. Receiving multiple emails from region and HQ, as well as occasionally signing and forwarding correspondences to line judges like directives and reprimands that are drafted by HR and/or legal, are not sufficiently taxing duties to justify such a significant case load reduction when claimants are waiting for decisions. In most offices when HOCALJ comes open I suspect there is no one who wants it and there are hopes that one of the good to work with people has to rebuff fellow ALJs hoping they will take it. It’s a crap job. You get hassled by regional and national. HOCALJ is the buffer between the people doing the work and the less experienced who want to manage the work and improve it by dusting off stuff from dusty management books. You get to arbitrate office staff disputes and you can’t manage or discipline anyone without blessing from on high. I’m perfectly fine with reduction in hearing load for HOCALJ’s otherwise they might start conscripting us to fill the spots. |
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Post by bagelone on Feb 10, 2023 7:27:43 GMT -5
Not a compelling argument to the taxpayer. The 25-50 percent caseload reduction for local HOCALJs is justified by them approving leave, repeating whatever nonsense higher ups want, and wasting time on regional and national phone calls. Isn't that an argument for outside intervention and change?
This reduction didn't exist before Bice and Nagle. With the agency setting the time and place of hearings, they needed HOCALJs to serve as local hall monitors. Because SSA ALJs, who wiped out the backlog, were, in fact, undermining the agency? People who didn't want to handle a caseload themselves have flocked into the HOCALJ and RCALJ jobs. These jobs haven't been languishing unfilled, especially with relo costs paid.
Bice and Nagle also presided over the unending mess in Huntington, subjecting poor claimants to fraud redeterminations. The claimants didn't knowingly participate, but it took over a decade to reach a settlement. It's inspiring.
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Post by Pixie on Feb 10, 2023 7:44:14 GMT -5
Not a compelling argument to the taxpayer. The 25-50 percent caseload reduction for local HOCALJs is justified by them approving leave, repeating whatever nonsense higher ups want, and wasting time on regional and national phone calls. Isn't that an argument for outside intervention and change? This reduction didn't exist before Bice and Nagle. With the agency setting the time and place of hearings, they needed HOCALJs to serve as local hall monitors. Because SSA ALJs, who wiped out the backlog, were, in fact, undermining the agency? People who didn't want to handle a caseload themselves have flocked into the HOCALJ and RCALJ jobs. These jobs haven't been languishing unfilled, especially with relo costs paid. Bice and Nagle also presided over the unending mess in Huntington, subjecting poor claimants to fraud redeterminations. The claimants didn't knowingly participate, but it took over a decade to reach a settlement. It's inspiring. The reduction in case load existed well before Bice and Nagle. The HOCALJ job is time consuming. until one has done it, there is no way to know just how time consuming. Pixie |
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Post by bagelone on Feb 10, 2023 8:36:48 GMT -5
The reduction in case load existed well before Bice and Nagle. The HOCALJ job is time consuming. until one has done it, there is no way to know just how time consuming. Pixie If the reduction existed, it was not witnessed on a widespread basis. As stated earlier, many of us remember when HOCALJs led by example, including in terms of production. When the time and place regulation was weaponized, the different expectations were increasingly apparent, and underscored, to everyone. That weaponization occurred under Bice and Nagle; accordingly, the reduction of caseload for HOCALJs did not exist in a practical sense before them. With regard to whether "one has done it," think that you may be making assumptions and, perhaps, minimizing the experience of others. As another poster noted, uniform expectations do not translate well nationwide, when there are major variances by locale. Everyone's experience is their own and deserving of respect. This organization will need to adapt to serve the public, given increasing remote work (and hearings), and management structure and roles will need to change. Unfortunately, some of the conversations about necessary changes may at times be uncomfortable. Respectfully submitted. |
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Post by Gaidin on Feb 10, 2023 9:56:43 GMT -5
The reduction in case load existed well before Bice and Nagle. The HOCALJ job is time consuming. until one has done it, there is no way to know just how time consuming. Pixie If the reduction existed, it was not witnessed on a widespread basis. As stated earlier, many of us remember when HOCALJs led by example, including in terms of production. When the time and place regulation was weaponized, the different expectations were increasingly apparent, and underscored, to everyone. That weaponization occurred under Bice and Nagle; accordingly, the reduction of caseload for HOCALJs did not exist in a practical sense before them. With regard to whether "one has done it," think that you may be making assumptions and, perhaps, minimizing the experience of others. As another poster noted, uniform expectations do not translate well nationwide, when there are major variances by locale. Everyone's experience is their own and deserving of respect. This organization will need to adapt to serve the public, given increasing remote work (and hearings), and management structure and roles will need to change. Unfortunately, some of the conversations about necessary changes may at times be uncomfortable. Respectfully submitted. has been an ALJ for a long long time. Well before Judge Bice. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there to be seen. Of all of the different layers of management in the agency HOCALJ is the one with the most knowledge about how the process actually works and who the people doing the work do it. I'm sorry your HOCALJ isn't helping you out. I know some of them are micromanagers dreaming of an office in Baltimore. However, I for one can't imagine doing a full boat of hearings and having to participate in the number of meetings that my HOCALJ does. Maybe there need to be fewer meetings but that starts above the HOCALJ. |
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Post by operationalj on Feb 10, 2023 11:24:17 GMT -5
bagelone, I can appreciate your concern for taxpayers and ensuring adequate public service. However, I doubt the solution is asking ALJs in management to produce more dispositions. I think there is a better solution and worth discussing. My observation is that most HOCALJs are extremely busy holding hearings and dealing with management issues. In fact, I imagine most HOCALJs hold hearings to save their sanity; a reprieve from management issues. Notably, other positions in the hearing office have reduced production expectations when taking on additional duties… as much as 50 percent.
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Post by Gaidin on Feb 10, 2023 11:49:21 GMT -5
I will also add that I don't think a HOCALJ that lets the HOD do everything is really doing their job. Much like a platoon leader who lets the platoon sergeant do everything is failing the soldiers and the mission entrusted to them. The HOCALJ should be defining the mission for the office and taking the weight of upper management off the judges and the HOD do that those folks can do their job.
Management requires going to meetings and reviewing emails. It requires doing paperwork and telling people to get their act together. If you think line ALJs would be better off with HODs delivering that news you're not living the same existence as me.
The American taxpayer isn't getting cheated by a HOCALJ who hears 50% of the hearings. Heck they're not even getting cheated by OCALJ hearing a case every two months. They're getting cheated by a bean counter in Baltimore who thinks single source contracts for MEs or hearing monitors is a good idea.
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Post by bagelone on Feb 10, 2023 12:41:03 GMT -5
Sorry, I tuned out. I get it. A number of posters adore their HOCALJs and want them to do less. Never said that they shouldn't get a reduction. Only questioned 25-50 percent.
It's really not an either-or situation. It's actually possible to like your HOCALJ, while still raising questions about the role of HOCALJs. As remote work continues, and virtual hearings continue, will there be HOCALJs if HOs shrink or combine? Or, will more deputy RCALJs, or area ALJs, make more sense, and handle multiple offices? With a team lead who signs leave slips in each office?
Not trying to rock anyone's world. Status quo is comfortable. Things were not always this way. The different expectations article wasn't about HOCALJs.
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Post by Pixie on Feb 10, 2023 14:36:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure what my reduction % is. I fight to get out 45 or so a month without ever going below 40 (pre Covid). And lest one might say I slop through them to get this number and still be a HOCALJ, I don't get remands. Over the years I have learned the AC's wily tricks to get the scalps, and I give instructions and edit with their tricks in mind. I also do thorough file review.
If being a manager takes X% of the time, then being a manager and a leader takes X+15%. In SSA there are a lot of managers, but very few leaders. I was fortunate to have seen a few leaders during my military career, and was very fortunate to have seen a HOD (HOM back then) who had excellent leadership skills. The staff and the judges would have done just about anything for her. A combination of her warm personality and her caring nature made everyone in the office know that she cared about them, their families and most of all, about their jobs.
I never intentionally patterned myself after the HOD in question, but after about a year on the job as HOCALJ, I realized I was doing certain things similar to the way she did them in interacting with the staff. I also realized that I had patterned myself after a Major friend of mine I worked for while in the Army. He was the best officer I had ever seen. Evidently others saw it in him as he went on to make General. I had two good role models.
So, this is a long way around to say the HOCALJ job is multi faceted and requires a tremendous amount of time to get the decisions out while properly managing and leading the office. Pixie
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Post by superalj on Feb 10, 2023 18:01:48 GMT -5
The reduction in case load existed well before Bice and Nagle. The HOCALJ job is time consuming. until one has done it, there is no way to know just how time consuming. Pixie If the reduction existed, it was not witnessed on a widespread basis. As stated earlier, many of us remember when HOCALJs led by example, including in terms of production. When the time and place regulation was weaponized, the different expectations were increasingly apparent, and underscored, to everyone. That weaponization occurred under Bice and Nagle; accordingly, the reduction of caseload for HOCALJs did not exist in a practical sense before them. With regard to whether "one has done it," think that you may be making assumptions and, perhaps, minimizing the experience of others. As another poster noted, uniform expectations do not translate well nationwide, when there are major variances by locale. Everyone's experience is their own and deserving of respect. This organization will need to adapt to serve the public, given increasing remote work (and hearings), and management structure and roles will need to change. Unfortunately, some of the conversations about necessary changes may at times be uncomfortable. Respectfully submitted. I’m no friend of management, but it’s a thankless, pain in a.. job especially if you do it right. I’m with Pixie on this one-it’s something you got to experience. From your post, it sounds like you’ve have some struggling HOCALJs and that saddens me because they set the tone of the office. Recently, HOCALJs have been ordered to take reduced case loads bc our line ALJs weren’t getting enough hearings. I felt bad for them bc doing hearings is funnest part of the job. I’ve experienced good HOCALJs and not to good HOCALJs so I feel you. What I can say is the majority of HOCALJs that I know personally (and I know more than a few) work their tails off, care about their ALJs, deal with a lot more issues than you mentioned as they are responsible for all the souls in the hearing office and try to protect ALJs from unreasonable upper management edicts. They have gotten much better as a group in the last few years I would guess because the transfer list was frozen so the position attracted more candidates. Anyway, I just wanted to respond bc I don’t think some of your comments about them were fair. |
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Post by stevenq on Feb 10, 2023 19:17:07 GMT -5
Lots of good points here but what hasn't been mentioned is there is a not insignificant class of HOCALJs who took the job to get to an office they otherwise would've waited indefinitely to transfer to and folks who specifically want the break in hearing load so they can foist as much of the mgmt work onto the HOD and have a small caseload so that they can  ? a lot of their duty time instead. I had such a HOCALJ in my last OHO field office, and I was aware of a few others in my large region. The good news is most of this group are transfer wanters who leave the position as soon as they don't have to pay back the relo and return to being cruddy line judges with a full caseload. Other good news appears to be that this phenomenon is less common these days than it was a few years back when I was still at SSA. |
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Post by arkstfan on Feb 11, 2023 1:36:45 GMT -5
Sorry, I tuned out. I get it. A number of posters adore their HOCALJs and want them to do less. Never said that they shouldn't get a reduction. Only questioned 25-50 percent. It's really not an either-or situation. It's actually possible to like your HOCALJ, while still raising questions about the role of HOCALJs. As remote work continues, and virtual hearings continue, will there be HOCALJs if HOs shrink or combine? Or, will more deputy RCALJs, or area ALJs, make more sense, and handle multiple offices? With a team lead who signs leave slips in each office? Not trying to rock anyone's world. Status quo is comfortable. Things were not always this way. The different expectations article wasn't about HOCALJs. Your early comment as Pixie noted, was wrong. I pre-date Bice and Nagel as well as reduction was well known. You are correct that at least some HOCALJ’s posted big numbers but it was a different era. I used to post fairly gaudy numbers. Held as many as 100 hearings in a month by covering cases for others when the need arose and regularly scheduled 60 a month. However that was when it wasn’t unusual to get files that a physical CE, mental CE, couple emergency room visits and a page or two of pharmacy records. Medicaid expansion ended that. The time demand for HOCALJ’s has changed for the worse as well, a reason so few of us won’t touch the job. The position does need to be rethought. The very well known fact that unlike most government positions or private sector positions that there is little interest except as a path to a desired location is ample evidence that the position needs to change. |
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Post by jagvet on Feb 11, 2023 23:01:41 GMT -5
I wouldn't want to be a HOCALJ. Even with a reduced caseload, who wants the headache of managing the staff and having unmanageable ALJs?
Then there's the interminable regional and national meetings.
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? a lot of their duty time instead.