Several Genl Atty Positions at Hrg Offc. expire 3/23!

[Rabbit Bat Reindeer]

Mar 23, 2023 9:45:30 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

Let's get a couple things in the open that everyone knows but wishes they knew when they stepped in the hearing office. Management has been selling the possibility of a stepping stone to ALJ to new writers for many years. It's not impossible but it's very uncommon. In the past 10 years in my hearing office 1 person has been promoted to senior attorney and zero have been picked up for ALJ that's counting managers.

This job is bad for a young attorney that wants to practice law. You'll never represent a client, draft a compliant, conduct discovery, attend a deposition, select a jury, make an oral argument, or wear a tie. And you'll never do any of that if you get promoted to SAA, GS, HOD or ALJ. Check that, you might wear a tie as an ALJ.

Also, very few people leave particularly if you stay more than a few years it generally ends up being your career. The job pigeonholes the young attorney into a nich unprofitable area of law where non attorney paralegals working for SSA make substantially more than the private sector representatives that appear in front of the ALJ, who also may or may not be attorneys. Claimants rep is the only private sector job you're qualified for because you don't develope the attorney skills mentioned above, outside of claimant rep you may as well be a new grad. Most of the people on this board are heavily invested insiders because ALJ is really the only substantial promotion they're qualified for.

But here's what it also is, it's chill. You spend your days at home with little interaction with supervisors or coworkers. You're mostly left alone. It's predictable It's more or less the same thing everyday. You make a decent living and your family has health insurance. There's no billable hours, networking events, annoying clients, 50 hour workweeks or dry cleaning. You'll probably be fine so long as you can mostly avoid comparing yourself to ALJs and the real attorneys you went to school with on social media. Even better if you're not the primary breadwinner of the household. But don't come here thinking you're gonna practice law because the job title says attorney advisor. This isn't what you went to law school for. Don't come here expecting to become an ALJ, if that happens well down the line it will be a pleasant surprise with luck as a significant factor.

TLDR: the job is best for young attorneys that have discovered they actually don't want to practice law or for seasoned attorneys looking to chill and semi retire.

That post should be pinned somewhere on this board, it's a great summary of the Attorney-Advisor role. Once the step increases starting hitting at GS-12, it ends up being a decent salary given the effort spent on the job. Obviously, the money goes a lot further in certain parts of the country. I'd imagine one could live pretty well in most of the cities listed in these new USAJOBS postings.

There is a path to ALJ but yeah, it's either management, trying to get with OGC, or getting out of OHO and into another part of the agency. If only the agency cared about retaining their best talent and created more Senior Attorney positions...

[rightspeech]

www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=2ee4efd8583ff3ad

These are the actual attorneys at SSA. They call it General Attorney rather than Attorney Advisor.

They're so afraid of getting inundated with apps from OHO that they don't even post it on USAJOBS. They go on indeed and LinkedIn and various bar association websites.

[balzac]

Mar 23, 2023 9:45:30 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

Let's get a couple things in the open that everyone knows but wishes they knew when they stepped in the hearing office. Management has been selling the possibility of a stepping stone to ALJ to new writers for many years. It's not impossible but it's very uncommon. In the past 10 years in my hearing office 1 person has been promoted to senior attorney and zero have been picked up for ALJ that's counting managers.

This job is bad for a young attorney that wants to practice law. You'll never represent a client, draft a compliant, conduct discovery, attend a deposition, select a jury, make an oral argument, or wear a tie. And you'll never do any of that if you get promoted to SAA, GS, HOD or ALJ. Check that, you might wear a tie as an ALJ.

Also, very few people leave particularly if you stay more than a few years it generally ends up being your career. The job pigeonholes the young attorney into a nich unprofitable area of law where non attorney paralegals working for SSA make substantially more than the private sector representatives that appear in front of the ALJ, who also may or may not be attorneys. Claimants rep is the only private sector job you're qualified for because you don't develope the attorney skills mentioned above, outside of claimant rep you may as well be a new grad. Most of the people on this board are heavily invested insiders because ALJ is really the only substantial promotion they're qualified for.

But here's what it also is, it's chill. You spend your days at home with little interaction with supervisors or coworkers. You're mostly left alone. It's predictable It's more or less the same thing everyday. You make a decent living and your family has health insurance. There's no billable hours, networking events, annoying clients, 50 hour workweeks or dry cleaning. You'll probably be fine so long as you can mostly avoid comparing yourself to ALJs and the real attorneys you went to school with on social media. Even better if you're not the primary breadwinner of the household. But don't come here thinking you're gonna practice law because the job title says attorney advisor. This isn't what you went to law school for. Don't come here expecting to become an ALJ, if that happens well down the line it will be a pleasant surprise with luck as a significant factor.

This is one of the truer posts I have come across on this board. Being a decision writer is certainly chill, and very easy, and makes for a carefree and simple work life. However, it also causes "real" attorney skills to atrophy and does not qualify one for any respectable job outside OHO. The job is a graveyard for ambition. 

[AAmillennial]

I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but couldn't you say the same for the ALJ position? How much are ALJs really "practicing law"? No rules of evidence to deal with. No case law to worry about, aside from the few that become ARs, and even then, the writer drafting the decision will handle it. How many ALJs have logged into Westlaw from their agency laptop? Don't need to worry about expert witnesses, jury selection, motions in limine, etc. Couldn't you also say- don't apply to be an ALJ thinking you're "gonna practice law because the job title says" administrative law judge? Litigators aside, the day-to-day work of many attorneys is often repetitive, monotonous, and involves some form of an auto text bank, not making oral arguments or deposing a witness.

Mar 23, 2023 9:45:30 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

lol this topic comes up here about once per year and it always gets toxic AF because certain people have being an attorney super caught up in their personal identity. It's hard you went to law school maybe you used to be an attorney and you want to introduce yourself and tell your family and yourself that you're an attorney, which you are but you're just not practicing law for work.

ABA says the "practice of law" is the application of legal principles and judgment with regard to the circumstances or objectives of a person that require the knowledge and skill of a person trained in the law. The fact is the organization employs paralegal decision writers, group supervisors, and hearing office directors that may or may not have a college education.

I think everyone kinda knows it but they cling because the organization calls you a 0905 and makes you maintain a law license, perhaps it's an attorney job but certainly not the practice of law.

Let's get a couple things in the open that everyone knows but wishes they knew when they stepped in the hearing office. Management has been selling the possibility of a stepping stone to ALJ to new writers for many years. It's not impossible but it's very uncommon. In the past 10 years in my hearing office 1 person has been promoted to senior attorney and zero have been picked up for ALJ that's counting managers.

This job is bad for a young attorney that wants to practice law. You'll never represent a client, draft a compliant, conduct discovery, attend a deposition, select a jury, make an oral argument, or wear a tie. And you'll never do any of that if you get promoted to SAA, GS, HOD or ALJ. Check that, you might wear a tie as an ALJ.

Also, very few people leave particularly if you stay more than a few years it generally ends up being your career. The job pigeonholes the young attorney into a nich unprofitable area of law where non attorney paralegals working for SSA make substantially more than the private sector representatives that appear in front of the ALJ, who also may or may not be attorneys. Claimants rep is the only private sector job you're qualified for because you don't develope the attorney skills mentioned above, outside of claimant rep you may as well be a new grad. Most of the people on this board are heavily invested insiders because ALJ is really the only substantial promotion they're qualified for.

But here's what it also is, it's chill. You spend your days at home with little interaction with supervisors or coworkers. You're mostly left alone. It's predictable It's more or less the same thing everyday. You make a decent living and your family has health insurance. There's no billable hours, networking events, annoying clients, 50 hour workweeks or dry cleaning. You'll probably be fine so long as you can mostly avoid comparing yourself to ALJs and the real attorneys you went to school with on social media. Even better if you're not the primary breadwinner of the household. But don't come here thinking you're gonna practice law because the job title says attorney advisor. This isn't what you went to law school for. Don't come here expecting to become an ALJ, if that happens well down the line it will be a pleasant surprise with luck as a significant factor.

TLDR: the job is best for young attorneys that have discovered they actually don't want to practice law or for seasoned attorneys looking to chill and semi retire.

[foghorn]

Mar 23, 2023 9:45:30 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

lol this topic comes up here about once per year and it always gets toxic AF because certain people have being an attorney super caught up in their personal identity. It's hard you went to law school maybe you used to be an attorney and you want to introduce yourself and tell your family and yourself that you're an attorney, which you are but you're just not practicing law for work.

ABA says the "practice of law" is the application of legal principles and judgment with regard to the circumstances or objectives of a person that require the knowledge and skill of a person trained in the law. The fact is the organization employs paralegal decision writers, group supervisors, and hearing office directors that may or may not have a college education.

I think everyone kinda knows it but they cling because the organization calls you a 0905 and makes you maintain a law license, perhaps it's an attorney job but certainly not the practice of law.

Let's get a couple things in the open that everyone knows but wishes they knew when they stepped in the hearing office. Management has been selling the possibility of a stepping stone to ALJ to new writers for many years. It's not impossible but it's very uncommon. In the past 10 years in my hearing office 1 person has been promoted to senior attorney and zero have been picked up for ALJ that's counting managers.

This job is bad for a young attorney that wants to practice law. You'll never represent a client, draft a compliant, conduct discovery, attend a deposition, select a jury, make an oral argument, or wear a tie. And you'll never do any of that if you get promoted to SAA, GS, HOD or ALJ. Check that, you might wear a tie as an ALJ.

Also, very few people leave particularly if you stay more than a few years it generally ends up being your career. The job pigeonholes the young attorney into a nich unprofitable area of law where non attorney paralegals working for SSA make substantially more than the private sector representatives that appear in front of the ALJ, who also may or may not be attorneys. Claimants rep is the only private sector job you're qualified for because you don't develope the attorney skills mentioned above, outside of claimant rep you may as well be a new grad. Most of the people on this board are heavily invested insiders because ALJ is really the only substantial promotion they're qualified for.

But here's what it also is, it's chill. You spend your days at home with little interaction with supervisors or coworkers. You're mostly left alone. It's predictable It's more or less the same thing everyday. You make a decent living and your family has health insurance. There's no billable hours, networking events, annoying clients, 50 hour workweeks or dry cleaning. You'll probably be fine so long as you can mostly avoid comparing yourself to ALJs and the real attorneys you went to school with on social media. Even better if you're not the primary breadwinner of the household. But don't come here thinking you're gonna practice law because the job title says attorney advisor. This isn't what you went to law school for. Don't come here expecting to become an ALJ, if that happens well down the line it will be a pleasant surprise with luck as a significant factor.

TLDR: the job is best for young attorneys that have discovered they actually don't want to practice law or for seasoned attorneys looking to chill and semi retire.


Thank you for your willingness to say what few are willing to say.   

However you refer to "50 hour workweeks." Litigators often work 60 or more. The most I ever worked was a mere 138, so what would I know?

  

[rightspeech]

Mar 23, 2023 14:50:55 GMT -5 AAmillennial said:

I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but couldn't you say the same for the ALJ position? How much are ALJs really "practicing law"? No rules of evidence to deal with. No case law to worry about, aside from the few that become ARs, and even then, the writer drafting the decision will handle it. How many ALJs have logged into Westlaw from their agency laptop? Don't need to worry about expert witnesses, jury selection, motions in limine, etc. Couldn't you also say- don't apply to be an ALJ thinking you're "gonna practice law because the job title says" administrative law judge? Litigators aside, the day-to-day work of many attorneys is often repetitive, monotonous, and involves some form of an auto text bank, not making oral arguments or deposing a witness.

Mar 23, 2023 9:45:30 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

lol this topic comes up here about once per year and it always gets toxic AF because certain people have being an attorney super caught up in their personal identity. It's hard you went to law school maybe you used to be an attorney and you want to introduce yourself and tell your family and yourself that you're an attorney, which you are but you're just not practicing law for work.

ABA says the "practice of law" is the application of legal principles and judgment with regard to the circumstances or objectives of a person that require the knowledge and skill of a person trained in the law. The fact is the organization employs paralegal decision writers, group supervisors, and hearing office directors that may or may not have a college education.

I think everyone kinda knows it but they cling because the organization calls you a 0905 and makes you maintain a law license, perhaps it's an attorney job but certainly not the practice of law.

Let's get a couple things in the open that everyone knows but wishes they knew when they stepped in the hearing office. Management has been selling the possibility of a stepping stone to ALJ to new writers for many years. It's not impossible but it's very uncommon. In the past 10 years in my hearing office 1 person has been promoted to senior attorney and zero have been picked up for ALJ that's counting managers.

This job is bad for a young attorney that wants to practice law. You'll never represent a client, draft a compliant, conduct discovery, attend a deposition, select a jury, make an oral argument, or wear a tie. And you'll never do any of that if you get promoted to SAA, GS, HOD or ALJ. Check that, you might wear a tie as an ALJ.

Also, very few people leave particularly if you stay more than a few years it generally ends up being your career. The job pigeonholes the young attorney into a nich unprofitable area of law where non attorney paralegals working for SSA make substantially more than the private sector representatives that appear in front of the ALJ, who also may or may not be attorneys. Claimants rep is the only private sector job you're qualified for because you don't develope the attorney skills mentioned above, outside of claimant rep you may as well be a new grad. Most of the people on this board are heavily invested insiders because ALJ is really the only substantial promotion they're qualified for.

But here's what it also is, it's chill. You spend your days at home with little interaction with supervisors or coworkers. You're mostly left alone. It's predictable It's more or less the same thing everyday. You make a decent living and your family has health insurance. There's no billable hours, networking events, annoying clients, 50 hour workweeks or dry cleaning. You'll probably be fine so long as you can mostly avoid comparing yourself to ALJs and the real attorneys you went to school with on social media. Even better if you're not the primary breadwinner of the household. But don't come here thinking you're gonna practice law because the job title says attorney advisor. This isn't what you went to law school for. Don't come here expecting to become an ALJ, if that happens well down the line it will be a pleasant surprise with luck as a significant factor.

TLDR: the job is best for young attorneys that have discovered they actually don't want to practice law or for seasoned attorneys looking to chill and semi retire.

I hear what you're saying but if we look at the ABA definition at least the ALJ is using judgement with regard to someone's circumstances that requires legal training. There's no non-attorney ALJ like there are writers. However, in the main, of course don't apply for ALJ to practice law apply for the 200k salary. Most are willing to be lied to by desperate people about whether they can lift a gallon of milk for that kind of salary.

[AAmillennial]

Well, if the ABA says so...

As an AA within an NHC, which is more akin to a law clerkish-type role with preheating duties, I've certainly offered "judgment with regard to someone's circumstances that requires legal training" (and been the subject matter expert offering my professional recommendation on 1000s of denials/allowances). Is final decision up to the ALJ? Absolutely. Does my recommendation carry significant weight in that decision? Absolutely. And I take pride in that.

I think we can agree that the duties of both AA and ALJ positions with the agency are pseudo-legal, and one pays significantly more with a sweet title. But I don't think the two roles are that much different in terms of their demands and the skills required as compared to those under more traditional lawyer occupations. As with any job (legal or not), it is what you make of it.

Just my $.02

Mar 23, 2023 15:30:20 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

Mar 23, 2023 14:50:55 GMT -5 AAmillennial said:

I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but couldn't you say the same for the ALJ position? How much are ALJs really "practicing law"? No rules of evidence to deal with. No case law to worry about, aside from the few that become ARs, and even then, the writer drafting the decision will handle it. How many ALJs have logged into Westlaw from their agency laptop? Don't need to worry about expert witnesses, jury selection, motions in limine, etc. Couldn't you also say- don't apply to be an ALJ thinking you're "gonna practice law because the job title says" administrative law judge? Litigators aside, the day-to-day work of many attorneys is often repetitive, monotonous, and involves some form of an auto text bank, not making oral arguments or deposing a witness.

I hear what you're saying but if we look at the ABA definition at least the ALJ is using judgement with regard to someone's circumstances that requires legal training. There's no non-attorney ALJ like there are writers. However, in the main, of course don't apply for ALJ to practice law apply for the 200k salary. Most are willing to be lied to by desperate people about whether they can lift a gallon of milk for that kind of salary.

[rightspeech]

ALJ is more demanding than AA not necessarily intellectually but just real life stuff. Having to actually manage the hearing with the claimant, rep, ve, and hearing reporter. Having ultimate accountability for the whole thing making sure there's a good recording all that. I mean just hearing introductions, swearing in, questioning unrepped claimants. I could go a week without words coming out of my mouth for work purposes. You can't take leave whenever you want like an AA, has to be planned out way in advance. If your out of the office unexpectedly it affects third parties.

And there's gotta be some additional mental toll with the buck stopping with you and your name actually being on the paper. It could be different for an NHC AA who works for the same judge but in my experience when you're in a hearing office working for 15 different ALJs, basically any case and any evidence can be paid or denied. The ALJ has to make a decision about whether or not they're gonna change someone's life, and they have to live with that they have to go to bed with it. AA really has none of that.

[operationalj]

Mar 23, 2023 16:45:16 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

ALJ is more demanding than AA not necessarily intellectually but just real life stuff. Having to actually manage the hearing with the claimant, rep, ve, and hearing reporter. Having ultimate accountability for the whole thing making sure there's a good recording all that. I mean just hearing introductions, swearing in, questioning unrepped claimants. I could go a week without words coming out of my mouth for work purposes. You can't take leave whenever you want like an AA, has to be planned out way in advance. If your out of the office unexpectedly it affects third parties.

And there's gotta be some additional mental toll with the buck stopping with you and your name actually being on the paper. It could be different for an NHC AA who works for the same judge but in my experience when you're in a hearing office working for 15 different ALJs, basically any case and any evidence can be paid or denied. The ALJ has to make a decision about whether or not they're gonna change someone's life, and they have to live with that they have to go to bed with it. AA really has none of that.

Both you and AAmillennial have made valid points. There's definitely room for improvement for the AA/DW position. Question: If you do not mind sharing, what changes would you make to improve the AA/DW position? I know there's probably a lot, so how about your top 5 recommendations. And, I've noticed the Agency has created more detail opportunities for the AA/DW - how has that helped?

[rightspeech]

I see what you're doing that don't just complain offer solutions thing but I'm not complaining I'm past that I'm in the chillin category. I just wanted to provide context and insight for anyone contemplating like don't come here for the wrong reasons don't come here and be surprised and disappointed. Don't let a hocalj talk crazy in an interview and tell you if you work hard and put up boss dwpi number you're definitely gonna make ALJ.

The issue is pretty fundamental if your gonna call it a law clerk then advertise it as a career law clerk.

[legallysufficient]

Do HOCALJ's generally sit in on these interviews? Seems like HODs and Group Sups do more often than not.

[Pixie]

Because the position is so important to the HO, I would conduct the interviews with the HOD there as an equal partner. Pixie

[stevenq]

Mar 23, 2023 10:03:54 GMT -5 operationalj said:

Mar 23, 2023 7:46:33 GMT -5 Pixie said:

Insiders are always equated higher. A known entity vs. an unknown entity. Pixie

Good to know. My thought was the managing attorney in private practice is still seen as a 'legal' job even though they are primarily managing people rather than doing 'traditional' attorney work. I'm thinking the GS and HOD are similar to a managing attorney and are still 'legal' jobs, if held by an attorney.

And more to the point of the thread and your point, an insider GS or HOD is a great position to be in these days. I would add that to be a GS, you have to be an insider attorney, DW or some other SSA attorney position; it's not open to the public. This gives value to the DW position, in addition to all the other perks... tho a difficult job nonetheless in some respects.

Ok, that's my 2 cents and encouragement for the DW position. Back to work for me!

I wouldn't equate a GS and certainly not a HOD with a firm managing attorney. Managing attorneys in firms still have clients. They still make legal decisions and give legal advice. Usually firms have office managers who manage the non attorney staff and most if not all non-legal matters. Not so at OHO. GSs and HODs toil away for a huge percentage of their time doing completely non-legal admin work and the vast majority of the management tasks have zilch to do with decisions, advising ALJs on the regs, the regulations themselves, or even policy. HOCALJ is OHO's only position remotely analogous to private firm managing attorney.

And Rightspeech is 100% on point with everything they said. If you want to practice law--whether now or later--you're gonna have to leave OHO. And unless you have past practice, good connections, and/or a ton of luck, you're gonna have a tough time ever practicing anywhere but a disability firm (unless you are one of the exceedingly lucky and rare few picked up for ALJ).

If you want a 13 or 14 without leaving, you're probably going to have to climb the management ranks (definitely for 14), which will only distance you further from the practice of law and is generally abysmal (lately at SSA at least).

Just think very long and hard about taking the DW job. It's only a good job if it's one's last job, one doesn't have aspirations to make more than 12 money, and if one has the personality, skills, etc. to make doing the job and meeting expectations a breeze. Otherwise, one will quickly find it to be a dead end low grade (for attorneys) job grinding them into grist.

[stevenq]

"I hear what you're saying but if we look at the ABA definition at least the ALJ is using judgement with regard to someone's circumstances that requires legal training. There's no non-attorney ALJ like there are writers. However, in the main, of course don't apply for ALJ to practice law apply for the 200k salary. Most are willing to be lied to by desperate people about whether they can lift a gallon of milk for that kind of salary."

ALJ is certainly the practice of law. But there's a reason so many federal, state, and local government attorneys with great litigation experience choose to make their buck eighty as an ALJ rather than matriculate into high paying private firm practice in their areas of practice. For some it's being able to be "judge." But for most, it's that being an ALJ is infinitely easier than being a lawyer in private practice. A good bit of that relative easiness is due to the nature of CBA-covered federal jobs (40 hour workweeks, good benefits, generally no actually abusive bosses, can't be fired willy billy, etc.), but another good bit of it is simply because the tasks/duties performed are simply much easier.

[operationalj]

Mar 23, 2023 18:37:20 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

I see what you're doing that don't just complain offer solutions thing but I'm not complaining I'm past that I'm in the chillin category. I just wanted to provide context and insight for anyone contemplating like don't come here for the wrong reasons don't come here and be surprised and disappointed. Don't let a hocalj talk crazy in an interview and tell you if you work hard and put up boss dwpi number you're definitely gonna make ALJ.

The issue is pretty fundamental if your gonna call it a law clerk then advertise it as a career law clerk.

I really want to know. What would make this job better for you? I realize it’s just one person’s perspective but that’s better than nothing. I was a DW/SAA in a HO and could break up the monotony for me and others for periods of time- but not long term as the position is what it is. You seem very familiar with the position and could probably make some good recommendations. Of course, you don’t have to do anything, but I thought it was a good opportunity to get a discussion going. The position has been the same for a long time and could use some fresh ideas. Feel free to send PM as well.

[operationalj]

Mar 23, 2023 22:43:00 GMT -5 stevenq said:

Mar 23, 2023 10:03:54 GMT -5 operationalj said:

Good to know. My thought was the managing attorney in private practice is still seen as a 'legal' job even though they are primarily managing people rather than doing 'traditional' attorney work. I'm thinking the GS and HOD are similar to a managing attorney and are still 'legal' jobs, if held by an attorney.

And more to the point of the thread and your point, an insider GS or HOD is a great position to be in these days. I would add that to be a GS, you have to be an insider attorney, DW or some other SSA attorney position; it's not open to the public. This gives value to the DW position, in addition to all the other perks... tho a difficult job nonetheless in some respects.

Ok, that's my 2 cents and encouragement for the DW position. Back to work for me!

I wouldn't equate a GS and certainly not a HOD with a firm managing attorney. Managing attorneys in firms still have clients. They still make legal decisions and give legal advice. Usually firms have office managers who manage the non attorney staff and most if not all non-legal matters. Not so at OHO. GSs and HODs toil away for a huge percentage of their time doing completely non-legal admin work and the vast majority of the management tasks have zilch to do with decisions, advising ALJs on the regs, the regulations themselves, or even policy. HOCALJ is OHO's only position remotely analogous to private firm managing attorney.

And Rightspeech is 100% on point with everything they said. If you want to practice law--whether now or later--you're gonna have to leave OHO. And unless you have past practice, good connections, and/or a ton of luck, you're gonna have a tough time ever practicing anywhere but a disability firm (unless you are one of the exceedingly lucky and rare few picked up for ALJ).

If you want a 13 or 14 without leaving, you're probably going to have to climb the management ranks (definitely for 14), which will only distance you further from the practice of law and is generally abysmal (lately at SSA at least).

Just think very long and hard about taking the DW job. It's only a good job if it's one's last job, one doesn't have aspirations to make more than 12 money, and if one has the personality, skills, etc. to make doing the job and meeting expectations a breeze. Otherwise, one will quickly find it to be a dead end low grade (for attorneys) job grinding them into grist.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense and probably why some managers I knew in SSA would adjudicate a case every now and then.

[rightspeech]

Mar 24, 2023 4:29:13 GMT -5 operationalj said:

Mar 23, 2023 18:37:20 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

I see what you're doing that don't just complain offer solutions thing but I'm not complaining I'm past that I'm in the chillin category. I just wanted to provide context and insight for anyone contemplating like don't come here for the wrong reasons don't come here and be surprised and disappointed. Don't let a hocalj talk crazy in an interview and tell you if you work hard and put up boss dwpi number you're definitely gonna make ALJ.

The issue is pretty fundamental if your gonna call it a law clerk then advertise it as a career law clerk.

I really want to know. What would make this job better for you? I realize it’s just one person’s perspective but that’s better than nothing. I was a DW/SAA in a HO and could break up the monotony for me and others for periods of time- but not long term as the position is what it is. You seem very familiar with the position and could probably make some good recommendations. Of course, you don’t have to do anything, but I thought it was a good opportunity to get a discussion going. The position has been the same for a long time and could use some fresh ideas. Feel free to send PM as well.

Any details should be temporary promotions. The agency shouldn't ask you to learn and do another job for free.

Now that the agency has control over ALJ hiring develop a more defined, understandable, and achievable path to ALJ or OGC.

Of course almost goes without saying the job should be fully remote officially. You should be able to just move and submit an electronic HR form and your locality and state taxes adjust next pay period no questions asked. The agency has demonstrated the ability with OGC going fully remote. I think the fact that these jobs are still advertised as assigned to specific locations says something.

The deed has been done but overall probably just shouldn't hire attorneys to do paralegal work. Attorneys should be representing parties.

[operationalj]

Mar 24, 2023 5:21:03 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

Mar 24, 2023 4:29:13 GMT -5 operationalj said:

I really want to know. What would make this job better for you? I realize it’s just one person’s perspective but that’s better than nothing. I was a DW/SAA in a HO and could break up the monotony for me and others for periods of time- but not long term as the position is what it is. You seem very familiar with the position and could probably make some good recommendations. Of course, you don’t have to do anything, but I thought it was a good opportunity to get a discussion going. The position has been the same for a long time and could use some fresh ideas. Feel free to send PM as well.

Any details should be temporary promotions. The agency shouldn't ask you to learn and do another job for free.

1) Absolutely, and that shouldn't be too difficult to provide from an HR perspective. To provide a temporary detail promotion is saving the Agency money and time because they do not have to create another position and all the resources used in hiring. However, the attorney going into the temp promotion has to know going into it that it is temp and not to get all bent out of shape if and when returning to GS12 position; that would discourage further temp promotions for themself and others. For the career AA, if it's 3 years, that could/maybe provide for top 3 pay for retirement purposes as well.

Now that the agency has control over ALJ hiring develop a more defined, understandable, and achievable path to ALJ or OGC.

2) Absolutely. I think they are definitely moving in that direction based on the most recent ALJ hiring- heavily insider new ALJS. I fully support that! This ties into your last comment... attorneys couldbuild and preserve legal skills by collaborating with ALJs as an Agency attorney at hearings as DOJ/HHS does in some of their programs- and probably many other fed govt programs. BTW, the only reason I know that is that I was interviewed for a DOJ/HHS position partly because they liked my OHO/DW experience and working in high-production environment. So, it was worth something.

Of course almost goes without saying the job should be fully remote officially. You should be able to just move and submit an electronic HR form and your locality and state taxes adjust next pay period no questions asked. The agency has demonstrated the ability with OGC going fully remote. I think the fact that these jobs are still advertised as assigned to specific locations says something.

3) I hesitantly agree to this as an extrovert who really likes a hybrid work environment, but you are absolutely right. I also like to move/travel a lot and would love this flexibility too! Not only OGC but the VA is embracing this possibility as well as many private companies and organizations in the US and abroad. This idea also saves the Agency time and money in minimal brick and mortar expenses that we have seen during the pandemic. Fully remote is possible and would be a great option. Again, this a merely an HR, paperwork benefit with little to no cost for the Agency but a big benefit for some of the most important human resources. However, let's keep the extroverts in mind and have some options for hybrid and/or community building opportunities... while we are moving about the country. I want it all!

The deed has been done but overall probably just shouldn't hire attorneys to do paralegal work. Attorneys should be representing parties.See answer #2

[AAmillennial]

Mar 24, 2023 5:21:03 GMT -5 rightspeech said:

Mar 24, 2023 4:29:13 GMT -5 operationalj said:

I really want to know. What would make this job better for you? I realize it’s just one person’s perspective but that’s better than nothing. I was a DW/SAA in a HO and could break up the monotony for me and others for periods of time- but not long term as the position is what it is. You seem very familiar with the position and could probably make some good recommendations. Of course, you don’t have to do anything, but I thought it was a good opportunity to get a discussion going. The position has been the same for a long time and could use some fresh ideas. Feel free to send PM as well.

Any details should be temporary promotions. The agency shouldn't ask you to learn and do another job for free.

Now that the agency has control over ALJ hiring develop a more defined, understandable, and achievable path to ALJ or OGC.

Of course almost goes without saying the job should be fully remote officially. You should be able to just move and submit an electronic HR form and your locality and state taxes adjust next pay period no questions asked. The agency has demonstrated the ability with OGC going fully remote. I think the fact that these jobs are still advertised as assigned to specific locations says something.

The deed has been done but overall probably just shouldn't hire attorneys to do paralegal work. Attorneys should be representing parties.

I agree with each of these recommendations and think they are all entirely reasonable. And the recent influx of details is great! There are hundreds of AAs willing and capable of taking on new duties- the Agency should be taking full advantage of this.

I'd add the Agency should consider widespread adoption of the NHC model (2 AAs assigned to an ALJ). I know this has been discussed in this board before, and it comes with its own issues (management ALJs, ALJs having to deal with poor AAs and vice versa), but IMHO it does result in a better final product. The AAs see the file well before hearing, give a detailed review with recommendation, which takes some of the workload off of ALJs. And then that familiarity with the file while drafting leads to a more robust draft. I'd argue that an ALJ-AA team relationship also encourages a sense of teamwork and establishes some accountability. Not to mention, may help AAs build skills useful for future ALJ positions.

And I know you've heard this before, but more SAA positions would be welcomed. As you know, becoming a 13 opens a whole new set of opportunities. And some offices have too few (at times, none) SAAs.

[AAmillennial]

Mar 23, 2023 18:54:05 GMT -5 legallysufficient said:

Do HOCALJ's generally sit in on these interviews? Seems like HODs and Group Sups do more often than not.

I was interviewed by HCCALJ and two additional management ALJs, but the office structure is a bit different. NHCs do not have a HOD or GS, only an Administrative Officer (AO).

One detriment of working in an NHC as an AA is the lack of GS positions. The only road to GS-13 pay within an NHC office is landing the elusive SAA opening. Otherwise, you must apply outside of the office. HOs and NCACs have both GS and SAA GS-13 positions.