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Post by foghorn on Mar 20, 2023 16:34:08 GMT -5
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Post by extang on Mar 20, 2023 17:08:35 GMT -5
The position is advertised as in the Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, which I believe has not existed for several years. Always nice to see people are paying attention.
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Post by seaprongs on Mar 20, 2023 21:39:37 GMT -5
The positions are not remote, even though attorneys have been full time telework since March 2020. I have not heard rumblings of a return, but telework cuts down on that sort of water cooler talk.
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Post by legallysufficient on Mar 21, 2023 8:19:43 GMT -5
Correct-they are not remote. Perhaps they should be remote.
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Post by operationalj on Mar 21, 2023 9:03:51 GMT -5
Correct-they are not remote. Perhaps they should be remote. The DW and SAA/hearing office attorney jobs can be done anywhere in the world with a secure Internet connection and a laptop (or two). They should be remote. Hybrid is nice tho. |
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Post by christina on Mar 21, 2023 9:20:29 GMT -5
The positions are not remote, even though attorneys have been full time telework since March 2020. I have not heard rumblings of a return, but telework cuts down on that sort of water cooler talk. Which union? I don’t think nteu is going back anytime soon |
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Post by manunited77 on Mar 22, 2023 9:37:23 GMT -5
I'd think long and hard about whether you could do this job for 30 years because advancement is limited to none. ALJ is not a route the vast majority ever get considered for.
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Post by legallysufficient on Mar 22, 2023 11:57:51 GMT -5
Manunited77----many SSA and group sups start as attorney advisor writers. Some go on to be HOD's, etc. Question is also are you willing to relocate to make this happen. As well, GS 12 attorneys have become ALJ's (rare, but does happen).
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bt
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Post by bt on Mar 22, 2023 14:15:46 GMT -5
I agree that the promotion opportunity in these jobs is limited unless you want to pursue a GS or HOD position, which are not legal jobs. I have done the AA job for 15 years. The last AA picked up for ALJ in my office was 10 years ago. In the last rounds of ALJ hires, most of the internal hires were GS and even HODs not AA or even Senior AA. But it is a decent job for the hours, pay, benefits. Just don't expect many promotion opportunities.
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Post by operationalj on Mar 22, 2023 18:28:38 GMT -5
I agree that the promotion opportunity in these jobs is limited unless you want to pursue a GS or HOD position, which are not legal jobs. I have done the AA job for 15 years. The last AA picked up for ALJ in my office was 10 years ago. In the last rounds of ALJ hires, most of the internal hires were GS and even HODs not AA or even Senior AA. But it is a decent job for the hours, pay, benefits. Just don't expect many promotion opportunities. Agree - for a legal job, you really can't beat the flexibility, pay and benefits for a 40-hour workweek, pretty low stress, paid OT, and opportunity to improve writing skills. Just gotta manage the monotony - which is in any job. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 6:36:59 GMT -5
I agree that the promotion opportunity in these jobs is limited unless you want to pursue a GS or HOD position, which are not legal jobs. I have done the AA job for 15 years. The last AA picked up for ALJ in my office was 10 years ago. In the last rounds of ALJ hires, most of the internal hires were GS and even HODs not AA or even Senior AA. But it is a decent job for the hours, pay, benefits. Just don't expect many promotion opportunities. I don’t disagree with your premise, I disagree with the characterization that HOD and GS are not legal jobs - they are just different legal jobs. It is true that management (esp in the federal sector) is not for everyone, but being a manager has made me a better attorney and exposed me to a larger body of law. |
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Post by operationalj on Mar 23, 2023 7:21:07 GMT -5
I agree that the promotion opportunity in these jobs is limited unless you want to pursue a GS or HOD position, which are not legal jobs. I have done the AA job for 15 years. The last AA picked up for ALJ in my office was 10 years ago. In the last rounds of ALJ hires, most of the internal hires were GS and even HODs not AA or even Senior AA. But it is a decent job for the hours, pay, benefits. Just don't expect many promotion opportunities. I don’t disagree with your premise, I disagree with the characterization that HOD and GS are not legal jobs - they are just different legal jobs. It is true that management (esp in the federal sector) is not for everyone, but being a manager has made me a better attorney and exposed me to a larger body of law. Curious, I have not held a GS or HOD position but have managed attorneys/brief writers in private practice…would you equate the GS and/or HOD position to a managing attorney in private practice? It seems similar. |
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Post by Pixie on Mar 23, 2023 7:46:33 GMT -5
I don’t disagree with your premise, I disagree with the characterization that HOD and GS are not legal jobs - they are just different legal jobs. It is true that management (esp in the federal sector) is not for everyone, but being a manager has made me a better attorney and exposed me to a larger body of law. Curious, I have not held a GS or HOD position but have managed attorneys/brief writers in private practice…would you equate the GS and/or HOD position to a managing attorney in private practice? It seems similar. Insiders are always equated higher. A known entity vs. an unknown entity. Pixie |
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bt
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Post by bt on Mar 23, 2023 8:12:36 GMT -5
I characterized GS and HODs as non legal jobs because a JD is not required to perform the duties of those jobs. Therefore, they are not legal jobs in that sense. You do not need legal experience as an attorney to perform those jobs. Out of the 3 GS and HOD in my office only 1 is an attorney.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 8:41:21 GMT -5
There are paralegal decision writers too so one could argue that a JD isn’t required for those positions as well…
Maybe you didn’t mean anything by it, but I read it dismissively. I was just trying to provide some context. There are lots of “non-lawyer” jobs that require significant legal knowledge for compliance - police officers, HR managers, school principals, etc. If that wasn’t your intent, I apologize. But I think a year stint in management would do everyone some good, increase knowledge, and give a greater perspective. The one real downside is loss of flexibility (e.g. having to work out office coverage on holiday eve’s and typical long weekends). But you’ll learn a lot!
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Post by hopefalj on Mar 23, 2023 8:52:15 GMT -5
I agree that the promotion opportunity in these jobs is limited unless you want to pursue a GS or HOD position, which are not legal jobs. I have done the AA job for 15 years. The last AA picked up for ALJ in my office was 10 years ago. In the last rounds of ALJ hires, most of the internal hires were GS and even HODs not AA or even Senior AA. But it is a decent job for the hours, pay, benefits. Just don't expect many promotion opportunities. I don’t disagree with your premise, I disagree with the characterization that HOD and GS are not legal jobs - they are just different legal jobs. It is true that management (esp in the federal sector) is not for everyone, but being a manager has made me a better attorney and exposed me to a larger body of law. Were those jobs treated as legal jobs on the last application? I know they generally weren’t by OPM on prior applications, but I didn’t look closely at the current application. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 9:02:56 GMT -5
I don’t disagree with your premise, I disagree with the characterization that HOD and GS are not legal jobs - they are just different legal jobs. It is true that management (esp in the federal sector) is not for everyone, but being a manager has made me a better attorney and exposed me to a larger body of law. Were those jobs treated as legal jobs on the last application? I know they generally weren’t by OPM on prior applications, but I didn’t look closely at the current application. OPM did consider my Supervisory Attorney (i.e. GS) work to qualify towards 7 years of experience in the 2016 testing. I can’t speak to prior to that. |
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bt
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Post by bt on Mar 23, 2023 9:36:33 GMT -5
Yes "paralegal specialist" is a decision writing job something I find quite confusing. Requiring some who do the job to have a JD and others not. In any event, the only contact I ever have with my GS is about Web TA or some benchmark so the job seems very administrative to me. Plus whenever I've asked them a legal question or something related to decision writing, I don't always get a correct answer or any answer at all. So unfortunately, I am probably pretty dismissive of the job based on my personal experience.
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Post by rightspeech on Mar 23, 2023 9:45:30 GMT -5
lol this topic comes up here about once per year and it always gets toxic AF because certain people have being an attorney super caught up in their personal identity. It's hard you went to law school maybe you used to be an attorney and you want to introduce yourself and tell your family and yourself that you're an attorney, which you are but you're just not practicing law for work.
ABA says the "practice of law" is the application of legal principles and judgment with regard to the circumstances or objectives of a person that require the knowledge and skill of a person trained in the law. The fact is the organization employs paralegal decision writers, group supervisors, and hearing office directors that may or may not have a college education.
I think everyone kinda knows it but they cling because the organization calls you a 0905 and makes you maintain a law license, perhaps it's an attorney job but certainly not the practice of law.
Let's get a couple things in the open that everyone knows but wishes they knew when they stepped in the hearing office. Management has been selling the possibility of a stepping stone to ALJ to new writers for many years. It's not impossible but it's very uncommon. In the past 10 years in my hearing office 1 person has been promoted to senior attorney and zero have been picked up for ALJ that's counting managers.
This job is bad for a young attorney that wants to practice law. You'll never represent a client, draft a compliant, conduct discovery, attend a deposition, select a jury, make an oral argument, or wear a tie. And you'll never do any of that if you get promoted to SAA, GS, HOD or ALJ. Check that, you might wear a tie as an ALJ.
Also, very few people leave particularly if you stay more than a few years it generally ends up being your career. The job pigeonholes the young attorney into a nich unprofitable area of law where non attorney paralegals working for SSA make substantially more than the private sector representatives that appear in front of the ALJ, who also may or may not be attorneys. Claimants rep is the only private sector job you're qualified for because you don't develope the attorney skills mentioned above, outside of claimant rep you may as well be a new grad. Most of the people on this board are heavily invested insiders because ALJ is really the only substantial promotion they're qualified for.
But here's what it also is, it's chill. You spend your days at home with little interaction with supervisors or coworkers. You're mostly left alone. It's predictable It's more or less the same thing everyday. You make a decent living and your family has health insurance. There's no billable hours, networking events, annoying clients, 50 hour workweeks or dry cleaning. You'll probably be fine so long as you can mostly avoid comparing yourself to ALJs and the real attorneys you went to school with on social media. Even better if you're not the primary breadwinner of the household. But don't come here thinking you're gonna practice law because the job title says attorney advisor. This isn't what you went to law school for. Don't come here expecting to become an ALJ, if that happens well down the line it will be a pleasant surprise with luck as a significant factor.
TLDR: the job is best for young attorneys that have discovered they actually don't want to practice law or for seasoned attorneys looking to chill and semi retire.
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Post by operationalj on Mar 23, 2023 10:03:54 GMT -5
Curious, I have not held a GS or HOD position but have managed attorneys/brief writers in private practice…would you equate the GS and/or HOD position to a managing attorney in private practice? It seems similar. Insiders are always equated higher. A known entity vs. an unknown entity. Pixie Good to know. My thought was the managing attorney in private practice is still seen as a 'legal' job even though they are primarily managing people rather than doing 'traditional' attorney work. I'm thinking the GS and HOD are similar to a managing attorney and are still 'legal' jobs, if held by an attorney. And more to the point of the thread and your point, an insider GS or HOD is a great position to be in these days. I would add that to be a GS, you have to be an insider attorney, DW or some other SSA attorney position; it's not open to the public. This gives value to the DW position, in addition to all the other perks... tho a difficult job nonetheless in some respects. Ok, that's my 2 cents and encouragement for the DW position.  Back to work for me! |
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Back to work for me!