Question about clerking and experience

[aljcurious]

Hi all,

I am an attorney who is strongly interested in becoming an ALJ or AJ. By way of background, after graduating from law school I worked at a law firm for one year, then clerked for two years (federal district court and court of appeals). I am now working at a different firm, and am coming up on a year there.

One of the judges for whom I clerked is considering a career clerk position, and has encouraged me to apply if they continue and create the position. I am strongly considering it—I loved the job and would not otherwise have the option for such a position.

My question, however, is what effect that will have on a future ALJ/AJ application. I have read the positions’ requirements, which indicate that clerking counts toward the 7 years. But I wanted to ask if (1) that’s a correct take, and (2) if so, how a resume built mostly around clerking would help or hurt my future possible application.

Thank you for considering my question, and any guidance you may have.

[rmspringfield]

Really having had 2 prior applications denied because OPM said I didn’t have the “litigation” experience despite 11 years as a claimants rep I didn’t think clerk experience did count. I understand why Attorney Advisor/Decision Writer experience with SSA or VA counted as those attorneys write ALJ decisions and write them under very strict quotas.

As to whether it would help or hurt you to take a clerk job you would love who’s to say. Ask 100 sitting ALJs and you’ll get 100 different examples about their experience and also 200 examples of how they applied before and were turned down and could not figure out why.

Doing the math it doesn’t sound like you’ve hit the 7 years experience mark yet and with future ALJ hiring uncertainty for the foreseeable future the big question you need to ask is “would I be happy in the position that I’m being offered?” And that sounds like a great opportunity for you where you would make a great fit.

If the ALJ thing happens down the road for you great. But I would not sacrifice a great career that’s mine for the taking for a slight chance I might get selected for an ALJ slot several years from now.
You may find the opportunity you have leads to better things.

[seaprongs]

Apr 15, 2024 13:41:51 GMT -5 rmspringfield said:

Really having had 2 prior applications denied because OPM said I didn’t have the “litigation” experience despite 11 years as a claimants rep I didn’t think clerk experience did count. I understand why Attorney Advisor/Decision Writer experience with SSA or VA counted as those attorneys write ALJ decisions and write them under very strict quotas.

As to whether it would help or hurt you to take a clerk job you would love who’s to say. Ask 100 sitting ALJs and you’ll get 100 different examples about their experience and also 200 examples of how they applied before and were turned down and could not figure out why.

Doing the math it doesn’t sound like you’ve hit the 7 years experience mark yet and with future ALJ hiring uncertainty for the foreseeable future the big question you need to ask is “would I be happy in the position that I’m being offered?” And that sounds like a great opportunity for you where you would make a great fit.

If the ALJ thing happens down the road for you great. But I would not sacrifice a great career that’s mine for the taking for a slight chance I might get selected for an ALJ slot several years from now.
You may find the opportunity you have leads to better things.

I second this advice. There is no one way, and the hiring process is sporadic and headscratching at times. Do not sacrifice a great career for a slight chance at an ALJ position. Consider it a potential option and seek it out, but don't hang career prospects on it. There are a lot of crazy aspects of the selection process (which you can learn just by browsing this board), but one of the most random aspects is location. ALJ positions are still geographically located in specific cities. You could be the most qualified candidate ever, but if you haven't selected a city where the agency is hiring, they're not going to hire you. If it were a job where you could work hard and get selected eventually, we could give you a career path, but there are many aspects of the selection process beyond your control (where there are openings, if the budget is there, is the agency going to make hiring a priority, etc.). Just do you, and keep an eye out for potential ALJ openings. If it happens, great. If it doesn't, see where your career takes you.

[neufenland]

Apr 15, 2024 12:43:35 GMT -5 aljcurious said:

Hi all,

I am an attorney who is strongly interested in becoming an ALJ or AJ. By way of background, after graduating from law school I worked at a law firm for one year, then clerked for two years (federal district court and court of appeals). I am now working at a different firm, and am coming up on a year there.

One of the judges for whom I clerked is considering a career clerk position, and has encouraged me to apply if they continue and create the position. I am strongly considering it—I loved the job and would not otherwise have the option for such a position.

My question, however, is what effect that will have on a future ALJ/AJ application. I have read the positions’ requirements, which indicate that clerking counts toward the 7 years. But I wanted to ask if (1) that’s a correct take, and (2) if so, how a resume built mostly around clerking would help or hurt my future possible application.

Thank you for considering my question, and any guidance you may have.

You should take the job if it appeals to you (pun intended).  

I’m not an ALJ, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once, and I’ve been around the application/interview process for a while in several different iterations.  My thoughts are free, but worth what you pay for.  

If I could have a do-over, I’d do federal employment litigation in pretty much any agency.  That experience is easily transferable between agencies, for one, but it also can help tick the litigation box and put your resume in for MSPB/EEOC AJ positions down the line.  That’s in addition to having the right type of general experience for ALJ.  If the idea of it bores you to tears, then obviously disregard it.  

That said, a lot is timing and luck, so do what makes you happy.  You are also young enough to be able to change tracks if you find yourself in a rut. No one knows what ALJ will look like next year or in the many years beyond. As others have said, find something that makes the here and now bearable and always keep your options open.  

[Pixie]

You need to look beyond just meeting the seven year requirement, and I think you did that in question #2. The Agency really doesn't give much regard to research and legal writing jobs. It is looking for those who have thrived in a high volume environment and can be expected to do the same as an ALJ.

I had experience clerking at the district court level and at our State Supreme Court. Starting out, I was an academic and loved it. I don't think the Agency gave that much consideration in deciding to make me an offer.

Take a job now that you are happy with and worry about down the road later on when you get down the road. Pixie

[arkstfan]

As someone as has worked in criminal law family law, state taxation, environmental law, and intercollegiate athletics my advice is keep yourself open to new opportunities. In 100% of the jobs I’ve held I did not go into the role I expected the job to lead to and I’m very happy about that.

[judgechamberlain]

Not adding much, just wanted to say that everyone is offering amazing advice. Play the long game and develop good experience. You can’t minimize the value of the “high volume” experience, either, as Pixie said. Probably as valuable as any other factor. Find something you like, too. Helps to look for a new gig while in the position of strength knowing that you are ok where you are……

[nylawyer]

Just piling on here, but- do NOT make any career decisions based on a long term goal to become an SSA ALJ.

As others have noted, you could do everything right and still not get hired.

More importantly- the job could literally cease to exist in the not so distant future.

Besides, the days of this being the best job to have in government are long gone.

I've had four jobs in my post law school, professional career. (And quite a multitude before that, which can be nice for arguing with VEs).

If I rank those four jobs based on how much I enjoyed them, it is a distant, distant 4th.

I certainly understand why OHO attorneys would want the job, but if you are outside this world, I'd be looking to build up my career with something else in mind, at most keeping this as a plan B (or plan A.2)

[stevenq]

DWs get credit for 7 years no problem, but in every rubric they've used, though not disclosed, folks with only DW experience tend not to score well and make it far in the process. I imagine if they devalue more tangential experience with the actual hearings process (what DWs do), they aren't going to give your more tangential experience with litigation of all stripes but likely not disability via being an appellate judge's clerk much weight. (No idea about other agencies aside from SSA re: ALJ hiring prefs).

They want the candidate to have been the one making the decisions, under the pressure, etc. and actually participating in the litigation (more preferably from the decider's seat than even the litigating counsel's seat it looks like). Clerking, like DW, is a behind the scenes and indirect role in the lit.

Take the job you want. If you become skilled in a field then there may be a natural/easier path to ALJ in certain agencies that have small handfuls of them. If you want AJ, that means essentially EEOC or MSPB, and that answer is easy. Do employment lit.

Good luck whatever you do.

[Serious, J.]

I am a former law clerk to a District Judge, and became an ALJ.

I graduated from law school 20 years after I got my BA. I went directly into clerking and became a career clerk when my two-year stint was up. Few career clerk positions are available, due to lack of turnover and (at least there used to be) a cap on the number of career law clerks in chambers. If you can land a career clerking position, take it!

I disagree that clerking is too indirect a role in litigation to be attractive or useful for an ALJ position. I found clerking to be the perfect training ground. GS-14s and JS-14s seem to be viewed favorably by the hiring powers-that-be.

If you'd like more info, feel free to send me a DM. I'm not on here much, but I'll check in from time to time.