Thinking About Process

[Deleted]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the good advice on this board!

I'm recovering from my trip to DC yesterday. Took the WD and all went well. I met some very nice people in the testing room whom, on first impression, would make excellent ALJs. I also noted from our conversation that all four of us had limited our geographical selections, which surprised me. Conventional wisdom seems to say that more candidates are selecting all locations...

Thinking about process on the flight home. So, let me throw out a few statements about my very limited understanding of the ALJ hiring process, and would the people here who know, mind please giving me a 'true' 'false' or 'partially correct' or 'unknown'?

1. After the WD and SI I will receive a single numeric score, representing the sum total of A. Initial Application, B. WD., C. SI., and D. veteran's preference, if any.
2. That score determines my place on a register of candidates.
3. I will not know from my score, or OPM, my location on that register
4. That register will be composed of people who received a score from this go around and those from the testing from last year.
5. Somewhere there is a list of locations with ALJ slots that need to be filled.
6. Someone at OPM will randomly pick a city off that list???and
A. offer it to ALJs who want transfers to that location,
and if it is not filled,
B. create a certificate that includes the people with the top
three numerical scores off the register who are willing to go to
that location.
7 The Agency that requested the certificate will then contact, interview, and possibly hire one of those three people.
8. Meanwhile, OPM will have created certificates of groups of three candidates for every other opening.
9. So, If we assume 100 hires, then OPM will be sending our certificates containing the names of at least the first 300 people on the list, possibly more considering geographical considerations...
10. Even if you have a great score, you will probably only make one certificate this year, because in order for OPM to come around to your name again, the hiring agency would have to reject all three candidates AND OPM would have to exhaust the entire list and start again from the top?
11. If you narrowed your geographical selection, it is possible that all the available slots in your selection will be filled by people who chose 'all locations' before OPM works down to your name, even if you have a very high score.
12. The current register has about 400-500 people left on it, and after this current WD and SI another 300-400 will be added.
13. A numeric score in the 60-65 range is generally required in order to make a certificate. Below that number, all existing slots will probably be filled before they get to you.
14. SSA will hire as many as 90-100 new ALJ's in 2009.
15. There will be a new round of ALJ hiring in 2010. If OPM does not open the register again, people with lower scores could possibly make a certificate. Or, OPM could open the register, conduct a new round of WD and SI and add another couple of hundred to the list. Or, OPM could trash the whole register and start over.

I apologize for the lengthy post. Thanks in advance for any information you can provide. Good Luck to everyone!

RobG

[pm]

1-4 are accurate.
5 is not technically accurate but has a kernal of truth.
6-11 have a few truths buried in numerous errors. Sorry, but it's not worth the time to sort them out
12 is probably accurate regarding the present register but so far we really don't know how many newbies will be added
13 - no number is required to make the certificate, although in the last major hire the cert numbers reached down into the low 60s.
14 - probably true, maybe a few more
15 - unknown about hiring.

[ruonthelist]

Nov 22, 2008 18:30:24 GMT -5 robg said:

5. Somewhere there is a list of locations with ALJ slots that need to be filled.
6. Someone at OPM will randomly pick a city off that list???and
A. offer it to ALJs who want transfers to that location,
and if it is not filled,
B. create a certificate that includes the people with the top three numerical scores off the register who are willing to go to that location.

Concerning 6.A. on your list: the process of offering transfers to incumbent judge happens at the agency level. OPM is not involved at that stage. In SSA the process is governed by the contract between the agency and the AALJ. In most other agencies it is not an issue because all of the ALJs are stationed in DC. There are a few non-SSA agencies with offices ouside DC (e.g. Medicare, NLRB, Labor, OSHRC) and I'm not sure whether they offer transfers to their sitting judges before requesting a register. If so it is a matter of informal arrangements, not dictated by a collective bargaining agreement or any other kind of formal procedure.

In the case of SSA, the accepted transfer offers will reshuffle the original list of cities, so that the final list of cities for which the agency requests a certificate will be affected by the transfer offer process.

[barkley]

Just a few comments on your outline (and I hope those wiser will correct!

Using SSA an example since they do the most hiring. . .

SSA decides where they want to place judges, based on a mysterous combination of work needs, available office space and other factors.

Once SSA choses their list, they must offer a spot to the top person on that offices transfer list. They could choose to go down the list with further spots (i.e., if they are hiring two ALJs for one location or if the first ALJ turns down the opportunity to move, SSA could go to the #2 person on the list) but they don't have to.

Eventually, SSA comes up with their list to base their cert request on.

SSA could choose to request a cert tomorrow, but they could chose to wait until the register is updated with the candidates currently testing. Or both.

When OPM receives the list, they look at the locations and number of slots and send over the list of candidates. If the #1 person on the registery listed only one location, and that location is not on the cert request, the #1 person on the list will not be sent to SSA.

If SSA has 100 slots on its list, OPM will send a list of 300 names. They will not sent 100 lists. In other words, SSA gets a list of 300 names. They do not get separate lists of Person #1, #2, #3 for Big City, Person #4, #5, #6 for West Podunk, etc. SSA interviews all 300 candidates and it is a mystery how they determine placement. If the highest scoring person on the registry listed "everwhere," they are not necessarily consdered for all locations separately.

If SSA requests a second cert, they will only interview candidates not previously considered. However, not getting picked during one cycle does not preclude getting picked up in subsequent cycles.

[morgullord]

"If SSA requests a second cert, they will only interview candidates not previously considered. However, not getting picked during one cycle does not preclude getting picked up in subsequent cycles. "

I would not bet a whole lot of money on this.

[nonamouse]

robg,

What you need to know about the remainder of the process is this:

You will get an email, probably in February or later with the final score assigned to you and determining your placement on the register maintained by OPM. This is called the Notice of Results (NOR). You are not allowed to reapply (to start the whole process over in hopes of a better score) until at least one year has passed from the date of your NOR. (You cannot add cities to your list until the next time that OPM accepts new applications regardless of when you got your NOR.)

Nothing will happen for the people sitting on the register with their shiny new scores until some agency decides that it needs some ALJs and they want new hires. (There are more than 30 agencies that have ALJs although SSA hires the greatest number using the register. Other agencies often poach experienced ALJs from SSA.)

Assuming that SSA wants to hire a group, they will go through the transfer dance which you will hear about from posts here or friends in a hearing office. You don't have to worry about this part of the process unless you just like trying to guess a timetable.

SSA will request a certificate for some magical number for a list of available offices that you will hope includes someplace you stated that you are willing to go. You will also hope that the number of people being considered means that the certificate reaches far enough down the register to get to your score. (Think 3x the number of openings.) If the planets align, you will get another email stating that your name has been sent on a certificate for the following cities: x, Y & Z.

When the agency gets the certificate with your name, they will contact you by email, phone call or both to arrange for you to travel to Falls Church for the SSA specific interview. The person who called me to set up my interview time actually called my cell on a Saturday and went through the dates with me to find one that would work in my schedule. SATO travel will book your flight and hotel, if any. My flight was direct billed to SSA. If you are a short flight away, you can do a round trip on the day of the interview.

After the SSA interview, you will wait what seems like forever to hear if you got the job. My offer came by email. I must note that some people were interviewed last January, but they did not get an offer on the first (or second) certificates and then they slid into home on the third certificate in June. As has been stated, SSA will not redo the interview even if they consider you for more than one certificate.

If you check in regularly here, you will find out what is happening a lot faster than perhaps is good for your sanity. I read that people were getting offers in emails and mine had not shown up at home. I had to wait until I got to work the next day and there it was in my government email account even though everything else had come to my home email as listed with USAJOBS.

If you get an offer, you will be told in the email how to accept it. A packet will come FedEx with paperwork to complete and some instructions on how and when to report for your new job.

Good luck to you and try to stay mellow about the whole thing.

[Deleted]

Thanks everyone for their input so far, particularly nonamouse, for a very helpful response. I'm glad this board is here to exchange information, otherwise this process would be even more mystifying.

I could ask even more questions, but I think I'll take some good advice and try not to think about it. I have a co-worker who will be spending his Thanksgiving and Christmas in Iraq. Things could always be worse, and it's important to remember to appreciate what you have.

Thanks again for all the support!

R

[jcse]

I have a question for nonamouse. Who exactly interviews you in Falls Church? Was it a panel? the Chief ALJ (Cristaudo) or someone else? Was it also a structured interview, or do they ask SSa-specific questions, i.e., questions that test your knowldge of substantive law?

[aljsouth]

Jan 3, 2009 21:59:00 GMT -5 jcse said:

I have a question for nonamouse. Who exactly interviews you in Falls Church? Was it a panel? the Chief ALJ (Cristaudo) or someone else? Was it also a structured interview, or do they ask SSa-specific questions, i.e., questions that test your knowldge of substantive law?

You are not questioned about your knowledge of SSA law. The panel is usually three people. The composition has varied over the years. 3 HOCALJ's when I went through was normal; but this can vary. Mine was structured with canned questions, but I heard from applicants on this board that the questions last time did not seem canned. High numbers production and use of technology is important.

[jcse]

Thanks ALJsouth; when you say "technology", do you mean the ability to use computers, digital recording equipment; etc.?

[nonamouse]

jcse,
Two ALJ interviewers for SSA in 2008 plus one note taker who was likely a group supervisor or HOD (hearing office director). All of the ALJs doing the interviews for ODAR who I saw were managers (hearing office chief, regional chief or acting something or another). We cannot share the specifics of the questions, but I think it is safe to say that at this point in the process it is more about who you are and your accumulated knowledge than what you could cram in for the interview. Be personable and polite and answer truthfully and you will do fine.

[zero]

Nov 23, 2008 23:21:57 GMT -5 pm said:

1-4 are accurate.
5 is not technically accurate but has a kernal of truth.
6-11 have a few truths buried in numerous errors. Sorry, but it's not worth the time to sort them out
12 is probably accurate regarding the present register but so far we really don't know how many newbies will be added
13 - no number is required to make the certificate, although in the last major hire the cert numbers reached down into the low 60s.
14 - probably true, maybe a few more
15 - unknown about hiring.

robg's questions/assumptions are really interesting. If anyone else has time to help sort out 6-11, it would be very helpful!

[Deleted]

Hey Zero,

Thanks for the post. I know that others out there must be like me and filled with questions. Well, from the answers above, and from other reliable posters on the board, I already know that some of I disagreeumptions about process were incorrect. So, 6-11 need some revision.

Apparently, what will NOT happen, is that SSA will send a letter with a city and an opening, and OPM will send three candidates for that city. Apparently, what WILL happen is that SSA will deal with ALJ transfers, and then send a letter with a list of cities and a request for names for 100-150 openings. OPM will then respond with a list of the first 300-450 individuals on the register who are not disqualified because of geography. Then, after interviews, it's up to SSA to sort out which 100-150 to pick, and which city they go to?

If the above is correct, then several of I disagreeumptions need to be changed. They were primarily based upon the idea that OPM would provide the names in some kind of order. I thought that it might be possible that I would be passed over purely because the available geographical locations which I wanted were filled before they get down to me on the list. Now that it appears that all the names just go in SSA's single pot, I'm not concerned that I may be passed over just because of the order in which cities and opening were filled.

It certainly looks as if the first 300 or so on the register will at least get a chance to interview with SSA. In the end, I guess that's all we can really hope for, a chance to interview and compete.

Thanks again for all the quality input.

R

[judicature]

robg -

As a person who lost one of my cities to a transfer, I can tell you from experience that SSA can request names from OPM before dealing with transfers.

I only listed 7 cities to begin with, SSA interviewed for 4 of those 7 and one of the 4 ended up being filled by a transfer.

I think narrow geographic choices work to your benefit if SSA definitely wants you, but hurts you if you are on the edge. The "all cities" folks give SSA the greatest flexibility and allow the agency to pick folks they want who have limited geographical choices; thus, if you put "all cities" you better mean it, because SSA may move you to a distant location to get both you and another preferred candidate with narrower geographical preferences.