February Cert

[southernmiss]

I heard this from someone who heard this, etc, so it is strictly a rumor, but I heard that there would be a small cert in mid-February. If so, maybe some of you on the current list still have hope. At least you should know by mid to late February.

[chieftain]

It's no less credible than any other rumor that has been on this board, several of which have turned out to be correct. Pixie has been talking about the possibility of a small cert for awhile now. The big issue was budget.

[odarite]

I have absolutely no information about a February cert: maybe true, maybe not. What I do know, however, is that there is no talk of an early small class, only of two large classes this summer. We shall see what we shall see. Or he who lives the longest sees the most. Or whatever.

[pm]

I haven't heard the newest rumor (if it is a new iteration) but I have heard the rumor before and it's the same one that Pixie has mentioned. The point is to grab people off the old list - they don't care when the training takes place. I have no doubt they would be trained with the other hires this year.

[blackswan]

Practically speaking a February cert would make no sense whatsoever. And it would irritate both outsiders and 2008 applicants. So it sounds like a sure thing.

[hooligan]

I have heard indications that they expect to need teachers as early as July. Calculating backwards, they would need to make offers in June. They probably would need to have the list 90 days before the hires. That puts the projection list availability in March. It is HIGHLY unlikely that they would use the old list when they plan to start using the new list as early as one month later unless they do not expect to move on the new list until 2-3 months later in anticipation of September classes. Time in the year is telescoping down to the point that there is little gain in usuing the old list unless they anticipate a major delay otherwise.

[pm]

Jan 28, 2009 21:04:09 GMT -5 blackswan said:

Practically speaking a February cert would make no sense whatsoever. And it would irritate both outsiders and 2008 applicants. So it sounds like a sure thing.

If you would read Pixie's posts you would understand why it makes perfect sense.

While it would irritate those who will be joining the register this year but would make some people on the current register quite happy.

[pm]

Jan 28, 2009 21:21:48 GMT -5 hooligan said:

I have heard indications that they expect to need teachers as early as July. Calculating backwards, they would need to make offers in June. They probably would need to have the list 90 days before the hires. That puts the projection list availability in March. It is HIGHLY unlikely that they would use the old list when they plan to start using the new list as early as one month later unless they do not expect to move on the new list until 2-3 months later in anticipation of September classes. Time in the year is telescoping down to the point that there is little gain in usuing the old list unless they anticipate a major delay otherwise.

What they hope to gain is to hire 15-20 people they want to hire from the current register. Those people may not be reachable when the new register issues. So it is HIGHLY LIKELY that they would use the current list if they had the chance. Pixie has explained this more than once and it is perfectly logical.

[Pixie]

Jan 28, 2009 22:02:18 GMT -5 pm said:

What they hope to gain is to hire 15-20 people they want to hire from the current register. Those people may not be reachable when the new register issues. So it is HIGHLY LIKELY that they would use the current list if they had the chance. Pixie has explained this more than once and it is perfectly logical.

Thank you for reading the posts and understanding them. Pix.

[deaddisco]

Jan 28, 2009 21:04:09 GMT -5 blackswan said:

Practically speaking a February cert would make no sense whatsoever. And it would irritate both outsiders and 2008 applicants. So it sounds like a sure thing.

sure. this post maybe slightly off track...but I gotta admit it's hilarious.

[odarite]

Jan 28, 2009 21:21:48 GMT -5 hooligan said:

..... in anticipation of September classes. ...

The one thing I would expect would never happen is a September class. Given how many experienced judges a new ALJ class takes out of the office during the month of classes, I doubt they would ever do that in the last month of the fiscal year, when everything is about the numbers. Dangerous enough to have July and August classes.

[flannery]

If you are talking about only a relative hand-ful of people hired off the Feb cert, they could include them in the first round of training (June or July)...

[odarite]

I'm thinking a July class and an August class and that's it for this year.

[nonamouse]

The problem with a "small" hire of 15-20 people is that it does not allow the agency to reach very far down the current register. What I'm seeing in posts is that the motivation behind a small hire is that they supposedly want to reach people who might get pushed down to a position they cannot reach once new people are added to the register. If the scores of the desired people are so low that a large cert could not reach them later in the year, then how could they be reached with a cert for 15-20 positions? It seems like that would only reach the top 60 people who would have already been interviewed last year and who could be reached easily later in the year also. Am I missing something here?

[deaddisco]

Jan 31, 2009 1:39:05 GMT -5 nonamouse said:

The problem with a "small" hire of 15-20 people is that it does not allow the agency to reach very far down the current register. What I'm seeing in posts is that the motivation behind a small hire is that they supposedly want to reach people who might get pushed down to a position they cannot reach once new people are added to the register. If the scores of the desired people are so low that a large cert could not reach them later in the year, then how could they be reached with a cert for 15-20 positions? It seems like that would only reach the top 60 people who would have already been interviewed last year and who could be reached easily later in the year also. Am I missing something here?

actually if jaghag's info about how ssa is applying the 3 strike rule is right, anyone already considered three times on either of the previous two certificates does not have to be considered again. that will pretty much knock out anyone already considered with scores above 62 or so. if you rule all those people out, ssa could potentially get into the high 50's with this small hire.

[privateatty]

From what I've seen, SSA knows how to get whom they want. Pixie told us that a long time ago and her counsel has proven true.

What I've seen is that if you're an insider with a high production track record and a "can-do" attitude or a "rep" well regarded by ODAR's echelons, then they want you.

For the rest of us, we can just hope that our interview with SSA goes (or has gone) well. Frankly, I don't know, nor have I heard here of anyone who got hired who was not known by someone at ODAR, but then I don't know much.

I'm willing to bet that if this small Feb. cert rumor proves true, those chosen will have scores all over the place. Last year we had about a third of those hired willing to post, this time around the Board is not nearly as lively and the population of posters is way down. So I'm not confident that these questions will get answered...

[pm]

Jan 31, 2009 1:39:05 GMT -5 nonamouse said:

The problem with a "small" hire of 15-20 people is that it does not allow the agency to reach very far down the current register. What I'm seeing in posts is that the motivation behind a small hire is that they supposedly want to reach people who might get pushed down to a position they cannot reach once new people are added to the register. If the scores of the desired people are so low that a large cert could not reach them later in the year, then how could they be reached with a cert for 15-20 positions? It seems like that would only reach the top 60 people who would have already been interviewed last year and who could be reached easily later in the year also. Am I missing something here?

You're missing something but I don't know what it is.

The agency currently doesn't have to reach very far down to get these 15-20 people, but if you add hundreds of people on top of them, some of them are not going to be reachable. It's very simple. There is nothing complicated about it.

[valkyrie]

"For the rest of us, we can just hope that our interview with SSA goes (or has gone) well. Frankly, I don't know, nor have I heard here of anyone who got hired who was not known by someone at ODAR, but then I don't know much. "

First hand reports from a judge who was in the training cadre, and from a new judge in one of the classes indicate that well over half of those selected were not connected to ODAR in any way.

"The agency currently doesn't have to reach very far down to get these 15-20 people, but if you add hundreds of people on top of them, some of them are not going to be reachable."

If there is going to be a small cert prior to the new register, its only going to happen because the agency managed to successfully beg for some additional ALJs. The primary purpose will not be a simple matter of hiring more of their own special people. I'm not saying they will not get some more of their best and brightest with lower scores if they get the chance. In most cases the extras are a carrot for achieving some goal, like processing a particular number of cases, or eliminating all cases of a certain age. The same strategy generally makes its way down through the lower levels of the organization, to where an individual hearing office will take on extra work from another struggling office in its region, and the regional office will provide extra personnel as a reward. Unfortunately, the success and additional personnel makes the office an even riper target for additional dirty work.

If you listen to some of the people posting, the agency is somehow diabolically cunning, while at the same time hopelessly inept. You can't have it at both extremes. Not everything the agency does is particularly effective, while at the same time you will not find some hidden self-aggrandizing agenda behind their every move. Where the agency has the chance, it will bend the rules to its advantage in subtle ways, but anyone who thinks that they are going to leave some kind of trail is clueless.

[decadealj]

Valkyrie- How about "diabolically cunning" in selecting who they want; "hopelessly inept" in improving the hearing process (HPI, etc.) and increasing the backlog with constant micromanagement using non-attorney management officials!

[privateatty]

"First hand reports from a judge who was in the training cadre, and from a new judge in one of the classes indicate that well over half of those selected were not connected to ODAR in any way."

Thanks for the info--which, of course, is reassuring.