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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 13:06:26 GMT -5
To confirm for Funky whether I am "truly under 35 and truly making the scrooge mcduck money says," yes I am. As I stated in my original post, I applied as an eighth year associate at a big firm. Standard big firm pay scale for 8th year associates is $280k plus bonus, which for me the last couple years has totaled about $350k. That sounds like a lot of money. But when we bought our house six years ago I was only making what ALJs make. So I figure I can survive on ALJ salary for a time. I would never stay an ALJ forever. If I get the ALJ gig I want, I could do that for 10 years or so, then exercise one of many options: (1) go back to the big firm as a senior counsel "expert" and not worry about billable hours or clients; (2) become a mediator at JAMS and charge $6-12k per day; or (3) move to the federal or state bench if the connections are in place by then.
Also factoring into my analysis is that the only ALJ gigs I want appear to be in DC, and DC (like a nice house near Mt. Vernon) is cheaper than where I am now. I'm sure you got where you are because you are smart and have worked very hard. I expect many people would give anything to be in your position. Best of luck whatever you decide.
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Post by funkyodar on Sept 24, 2013 13:36:02 GMT -5
All's cool faq. No reason to doubt you. Just thatin my lil corner of crapland I don't know anyone that could walk away from 60% of their salary. Especially fora job they openly hate for only the hope of using that job as a springboard to a job they may like better.
To each their own and I'm sure you will make the best decision for you and yours.
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Post by moopigsdad on Sept 24, 2013 14:32:07 GMT -5
No worries. I won't accept anything unless the path forward looks promising. And it's too late to change my mind about testing, already on the plane to DC. But hopefully the very helpful comments from others in this thread will help other coming from my background. When I applied in March, all I heard was how being an ALJ is a dream job, the best career in the legal field. After applying, I found the board and started to read Bartelby's comments . . . Of course there are many comments which are the total opposite of bartleby's comments. Everyone looks at their jobs differently and determine whether they like or dislike their jobs. Bartleby evidently has become disenchanted with his job, while others have not. Only you can decide what you like and do not like aljfaq. Good luck in DC.
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Post by funkyodar on Sept 24, 2013 14:35:56 GMT -5
No worries. I won't accept anything unless the path forward looks promising. And it's too late to change my mind about testing, already on the plane to DC. But hopefully the very helpful comments from others in this thread will help other coming from my background. When I applied in March, all I heard was how being an ALJ is a dream job, the best career in the legal field. After applying, I found the board and started to read Bartelby's comments . . . Best of luck faq. Just kick butt and let the chips fall. You can't control anything else anyway.
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Post by privateatty on Sept 24, 2013 16:56:28 GMT -5
I did about 10 years of litigation in private practice before I went into public service and eventually became an ALJ with a federal agency other than SSA. If you have been doing intense and complicated litigation for eight years, being an ALJ will hold no excitement for you. On the other hand, if you have been at your job for eight years and, for whatever reason, don't like what you are doing or the life you are living, life is too short to waste another decade being miserable. I got to the point where the stress of litigation became too much. As a litigator you are always in conflict with opposing attorneys and at the beck and call of presiding judges. There are no hours when you are actively litigating a case. You spend your weekends preparing for and stressing over the case that starts Monday and your weekday nights going over the events of the day and preparing your witnesses. It is a life that you must really love, and some people do and strive on it. I don't think you should stay in it for the money if you would otherwise not. As for myself and my family, I have been married for more than forty years and have grown children and young grandchildren. They and I agree that I made the right decision leaving private practice. Money was not the same but enough to live comfortably with time to enjoy life. The funny thing about money is that the more you have, the more you want. If money is your objective, you can never have enough, but, cliche that it may be, you can't take it with you. diogenes/marcopolo why would you say you were an ALJ when you were not? I mean, seriously...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 17:07:18 GMT -5
What are you incredulous about? I explained previously that I had left the forum and cancelled my account as Diogenes when I decided not to go forward with the process. I then changed my mind and came back as marcopolo. I volunteered this information otherwise you would not have known. But please tell me what it is that confuses you and I will try to explain. Wouldn't like to leave the impression that I have been untruthful in any way. By the way, I have always said that I was a judge with another federal agency and that I retired as such which is the truth. I certainly don't appreciate being questioned by you on this or the implication of your message.
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Post by crab on Sept 24, 2013 17:27:41 GMT -5
I did about 10 years of litigation in private practice before I went into public service and eventually became an ALJ with a federal agency other than SSA. If you have been doing intense and complicated litigation for eight years, being an ALJ will hold no excitement for you. On the other hand, if you have been at your job for eight years and, for whatever reason, don't like what you are doing or the life you are living, life is too short to waste another decade being miserable. I got to the point where the stress of litigation became too much. As a litigator you are always in conflict with opposing attorneys and at the beck and call of presiding judges. There are no hours when you are actively litigating a case. You spend your weekends preparing for and stressing over the case that starts Monday and your weekday nights going over the events of the day and preparing your witnesses. It is a life that you must really love, and some people do and strive on it. I don't think you should stay in it for the money if you would otherwise not. As for myself and my family, I have been married for more than forty years and have grown children and young grandchildren. They and I agree that I made the right decision leaving private practice. Money was not the same but enough to live comfortably with time to enjoy life. The funny thing about money is that the more you have, the more you want. If money is your objective, you can never have enough, but, cliche that it may be, you can't take it with you. diogenes/marcopolo why would you say you were an ALJ when you were not? I mean, seriously... Because he likely WAS, privateatty. There are 0905 series (lawyer) positions that are called ALJs - some agencies call the positions AJs, some ALJs. I really hope we can change the tone on this Board. Stress is high right now but we're all better than this IMHO.
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Post by 71stretch on Sept 24, 2013 17:52:16 GMT -5
diogenes/marcopolo why would you say you were an ALJ when you were not? I mean, seriously... Because he likely WAS, privateatty. There are 0905 series (lawyer) positions that are called ALJs - some agencies call the positions AJs, some ALJs. I really hope we can change the tone on this Board. Stress is high right now but we're all better than this IMHO. Hear, hear. Getting wound up about OPM titles vs working titles seems a bit petty. In my state job, the official HR title does not contain the word "judge", but I am one, believe me. Back to topic??
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Post by privateatty on Sept 24, 2013 19:31:18 GMT -5
diogenes/marcopolo why would you say you were an ALJ when you were not? I mean, seriously... Because he likely WAS, privateatty. There are 0905 series (lawyer) positions that are called ALJs - some agencies call the positions AJs, some ALJs. I really hope we can change the tone on this Board. Stress is high right now but we're all better than this IMHO. Well, as chinook pointed out, there is only one way to be a federal ALJ--as we all know. Pardon me for defending what you are all trying so hard to attain--but your point is just plain wrong.
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Post by gunner on Sept 24, 2013 23:33:56 GMT -5
All's cool faq. No reason to doubt you. Just thatin my lil corner of crapland I don't know anyone that could walk away from 60% of their salary. Especially fora job they openly hate for only the hope of using that job as a springboard to a job they may like better. To each their own and I'm sure you will make the best decision for you and yours. Oh Funky, biglaw associates do it every day. The standard salary starts at around $165 these days, and moves up to $300K by year 8. For fresh out of law school grads, $165 is already an unimaginable amount of money. If they're smart, and most of them are or they wouldn't be there, they realize that what they have is almost certainly a term-limited job that will last 8 or 9 years at most, and they don't live as if they're going to keep that $300K salary forever. Lots of them leave to go to government, making $155,500 as GS-10-15s. Also, the difference between $150K and $300K is less than it seems. Taxes take away a substantial part of it, both because of the marginal rate and because of the deductions that phase out. I went from $340K to $155,500 18 months ago. I had paid down the mortgage a bit and refinanced at 4.5% (did so again this year at 3.625), and I really don't even notice the difference, except that my retirement account no longer grows by leaps and bounds, but of course those big deposits were also getting eaten up by the recession in 2008-2011.
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Post by funkyodar on Sept 25, 2013 7:15:27 GMT -5
I guess its more common than I thought gunner. We poor street lawyers in crapland don't see $350k years too often. Guess I was looking at faq's situation through that prism.
I also admit I took a decent pay cut to come to odar. But being self employed meant no medical and "retitement account" meant whatever was left after paying the mortgage staff and funding cases.
Tort reform was the writing on the wall for me. Many of my biglaw friends were laid off and opened solo shops to survive.
With that background, the idea that someone could walk away from that salary and benefits after only less than 10 years on the job seems ridiculous.
But we all have different backgrounds and I may see ut differently if I hsd ever worked biglaw.
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Post by sealaw90 on Sept 25, 2013 8:25:01 GMT -5
I guess its more common than I thought gunner. We poor street lawyers in crapland don't see $350k years too often. Guess I was looking at faq's situation through that prism.... ...With that background, the idea that someone could walk away from that salary and benefits after only less than 10 years on the job seems ridiculous. Don't forget, after 8 or 9 years as an associate, if you haven't been offered partner, then getting off the treadmill of finding another firm and having a book of billables and getting a partnership, etc., an ALJ practice looks enticing. Even at SSA with all its craziness. As you can remember Funky, there was never a break in private practice - never. I remember trying to be on vacation on the beach emailing and talking to clients on my phone while my kids were begging me to come in and swim & play. Now when I take vacation, I don't give my agency a second thought, I couldn't care less if the place imploded (the building, not the people). I actually get to play on vacation. In my section of crapland, I didn't take a pay cut when I jumped from private to government, it was an even trade to GS-14. Plus I got FERS and TSP and could buy long-term insurance for my mom - things I couldn't afford in private practice.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Sept 25, 2013 8:38:26 GMT -5
I guess its more common than I thought gunner. We poor street lawyers in crapland don't see $350k years too often. Guess I was looking at faq's situation through that prism. I also admit I took a decent pay cut to come to odar. But being self employed meant no medical and "retitement account" meant whatever was left after paying the mortgage staff and funding cases. Tort reform was the writing on the wall for me. Many of my biglaw friends were laid off and opened solo shops to survive. With that background, the idea that someone could walk away from that salary and benefits after only less than 10 years on the job seems ridiculous. But we all have different backgrounds and I may see ut differently if I hsd ever worked biglaw. I do not think it is very common Funky. In my law school, only the top 3 to 4 % of graduates landed the "big firm" job with the high salary. Everyone else was competing for jobs that had pay scales in the $60K range. I was one of the lucky few since I did all the "right" things for the resume--editorial board on the journal, etc. That job had its price though...with long long hours. When I calculated the time I spent doing that work, I made much more as an RN when comparing actual pay per hour! But it served me well, looks good on the resume. But I totally understand why someone making that much money would be sick to death of it!
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Post by lurker/dibs on Sept 25, 2013 10:56:05 GMT -5
I must say that my philosophy has been that the harder I work the more money I make. And it is a vicious cycle. The more money I/we make, the more we spend, then the more we need. I methodically keep records of everything. Therefore, I know exactly how much money I bring in each year and it's even divided by the area of law. This week I was going back through those numbers for the last few years--courtesy of this thread making me curious. I bring in a hell of a lot of money. More than most lawyers, I think, other than big firm lawyers. But, the 60-80 hours per week that I almost always work just isn't worth it. I have small children that I just don't get to see often enough. However, in my situation it's a bit different. I have a family firm. We just hired a "baby lawyer" waiting for bar results. We were in need of a 4th lawyer anyway, but I am also teaching her exactly what I do so that if/when the call comes in, I will be able to take the job and she can step into my shoes. The hope is that the household income will not change with the "pay cut". However, if that doesn't happen, I feel sure that we can make slight changes to our style of living and be just as happy. No matter how much I love the Mercedes, I'm quite sure a Ford will do the job just the same. My point is, money is great. It is essential to life--to a level of life that we, as lawyers and Americans have grown to find as essential. But, in the grand scheme of things, going from $350K to $165K should not be viewed as a down grade when all of the important things in life get to move up the priority list. I'd gladly take my babies and $165k and trade in my $---k and miss their childhood. Just my two cents. BTW, I still call dibs on my local ODAR openings!
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Post by moopigsdad on Sept 25, 2013 11:02:14 GMT -5
I must say that my philosophy has been that the harder I work the more money I make. And it is a vicious cycle. The more money I/we make, the more we spend, then the more we need. I methodically keep records of everything. Therefore, I know exactly how much money I bring in each year and it's even divided by the area of law. This week I was going back through those numbers for the last few years--courtesy of this thread making me curious. I bring in a hell of a lot of money. More than most lawyers, I think, other than big firm lawyers. But, the 60-80 hours per week that I almost always work just isn't worth it. I have small children that I just don't get to see often enough. However, in my situation it's a bit different. I have a family firm. We just hired a "baby lawyer" waiting for bar results. We were in need of a 4th lawyer anyway, but I am also teaching her exactly what I do so that if/when the call comes in, I will be able to take the job and she can step into my shoes. The hope is that the household income will not change with the "pay cut". However, if that doesn't happen, I feel sure that we can make slight changes to our style of living and be just as happy. No matter how much I love the Mercedes, I'm quite sure a Ford will do the job just the same. My point is, money is great. It is essential to life--to a level of life that we, as lawyers and Americans have grown to find as essential. But, in the grand scheme of things, going from $350K to $165K should not be viewed as a down grade when all of the important things in life get to move up the priority list. I'd gladly take my babies and $165k and trade in my $---k and miss their childhood. Just my two cents. BTW, I still call dibs on my local ODAR openings! Darn lurker, I was hoping you would forget to call dibs again. LOL! It would be a blast to be in training class with you at FC.
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Post by lurker/dibs on Sept 25, 2013 15:15:41 GMT -5
If I knew how, I'd totally change my screen name to dibs! Too bad I didn't think about it at the time! I sure hope I'm in falls church with you people! I can imagine us having a blast! Gaiden and I, among others, had fun during off hours of testing. It would be amazing to reunite and to meet the rest of you! Though they may reconsider hiring me if I totally let loose!
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Post by sealaw90 on Sept 25, 2013 16:01:31 GMT -5
If I knew how, I'd totally change my screen name to dibs! Too bad I didn't think about it at the time! I sure hope I'm in falls church with you people! I can imagine us having a blast! Gaiden and I, among others, had fun during off hours of testing. It would be amazing to reunite and to meet the rest of you! Though they may reconsider hiring me if I totally let loose! Just let loose judiciously, you'll be fine!
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Post by BagLady on Sept 25, 2013 20:23:55 GMT -5
If I knew how, I'd totally change my screen name to dibs! Too bad I didn't think about it at the time! I sure hope I'm in falls church with you people! I can imagine us having a blast! Gaiden and I, among others, had fun during off hours of testing. It would be amazing to reunite and to meet the rest of you! Though they may reconsider hiring me if I totally let loose! You can change your screen name in your profile settings . . . lurker2active2dibs, maybe?
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Post by moopigsdad on Sept 26, 2013 6:45:09 GMT -5
If I knew how, I'd totally change my screen name to dibs! Too bad I didn't think about it at the time! I sure hope I'm in falls church with you people! I can imagine us having a blast! Gaiden and I, among others, had fun during off hours of testing. It would be amazing to reunite and to meet the rest of you! Though they may reconsider hiring me if I totally let loose! You can change your screen name in your profile settings . . . lurker2active2dibs, maybe? I like the new name baglady, it is much like from Tinker to Evers to Chance.....Double Play....LOL!
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Post by southernlawyer on Sept 28, 2013 13:40:52 GMT -5
For what it is worth - I'm an alj who came from the private sector. I wasn't making 350K, but I was making more than the ALJ cap. I took a 50% cut in pay to become an ALJ and didn't get an assignment close to my home - not good because that's about the time the real estate market crashed.....but that's another story....
If you are strictly looking at finances, I wouldn't make the jump. Altering your standard of living by that much (esp if you have kids) can be very difficult - just telling your kids less Christmas, no vacation, etc., is tough when you've enjoyed a very high standard of living in the past with loads of disposable income... However, for quality of life issues - well, you can't go wrong. I have absolutely no stress at my job - I come in, do my hearings, visit with my staff, sign a few decisions and go home. I cannot believe I'm so fortunate. I'm always shocked at the ALJs who fuss about job responsibilities and stress - I just assume they must not be from private practice....
For what it's woth, I questioned the other former private practice/making much more $$ ALJs I work with are split on the issue - one wishes he could go back, one doesn't, and one is on the fence because of the loss of income, but better quality of life.
Hope that helps. And good luck!
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