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Post by moopigsdad on May 22, 2013 10:56:15 GMT -5
But for those of us who ultimately would like to be an ALJ for an agency that conducts adversarial civil litigation type proceedings (like the ITC and FTC), I don't think being a state ALJ or working at SSA is relevant. Those proceedings are very similar to complex antitrust and intellectual property litigation in federal court, and nothing like what SSA and state ALJs handle (unless you are a state ALJ that hears consumer protection cases). I don't disagree at all, but the great majority of people on this board and hired from the ALJ Registry are hired by SSA. However, you are absolutely correct in regards to other Federal ALJ positions aljfaq. I apoligize for not qualifying my answer to say it was about those applicants interested in working for SSA as an ALJ.
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Post by chinook on May 22, 2013 14:00:10 GMT -5
I don't disagree at all, but the great majority of people on this board and hired from the ALJ Registry are hired by SSA. However, you are absolutely correct in regards to other Federal ALJ positions aljfaq. I apoligize for not qualifying my answer to say it was about those applicants interested in working for SSA as an ALJ. No worries. I think everyone that gets hired will have to work in SSA for at least a year or two before moving to another agency, as agencies like the FTC and ITC do not hire off the register. But I point out the difference because it is relevant to this thread: whether it is worth it to give up a high-paying civil litigation big law job to become an ALJ. It seems that a person coming from such a place will not be happy unless they can eventually land a gig doing complex adversarial cases. I think your assumption is incorrect. I know many who have been hired directy to a non-SSA agency.
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Post by privateatty on May 22, 2013 18:57:05 GMT -5
No worries. I think everyone that gets hired will have to work in SSA for at least a year or two before moving to another agency, as agencies like the FTC and ITC do not hire off the register. But I point out the difference because it is relevant to this thread: whether it is worth it to give up a high-paying civil litigation big law job to become an ALJ. It seems that a person coming from such a place will not be happy unless they can eventually land a gig doing complex adversarial cases. I think your assumption is incorrect. I know many who have been hired directy to a non-SSA agency. Ditto.
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Post by workdrone on May 22, 2013 19:21:59 GMT -5
I think your assumption is incorrect. I know many who have been hired directy to a non-SSA agency. Ditto. If you gents are referring to Medicare (OMHA), that was a one-time occurrence back in 2005 when they stood up the new agency. Besides the roughly 70+ ALJs they hired back then to get OMHA off the ground, I am unaware of any other year where any one agency other than SSA hired more than a handful of ALJs off the register. I don't believe this is a valid example as that OMHA hiring was a special event unlikely to be repeated. If this is not the example you're referring to, then name the agency, the year, and the number of ALJs hired directly off the registry.
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Post by goodoleboy47 on May 23, 2013 8:31:42 GMT -5
Workdrone, don't be so harsh and demanding of the gents. I have been around for a loooonnnng time and do know of hires off the register especially by those agencies that are very particular ie: SEC, DOJ, DEA, Coast Guard, etc. But as to listing the year or the number of ALJs, I couldn't even begin to remember. I have met many at FALJC gatherings but couldn't give you the information you seem to demand, but they do exist. I am not aware of any mass hirings such as happened when OMHA was created since other agencies use very few ALJs. DOL hires some but mostly from OHA/ODAR. It would be a simple task for you to look at the agencies websites and pull up the resumes of the ALJs to see what their past experience involved. For all of you who are wantabes, do not think you wll be hired by an agency other than SSA. It is rare. Also don't expect to transfer to another agency from SSA because that is also a rare happenstance. If you are hired by SSA to become an ALJ and want to transfer, you have to network as much as possible and join as many organizations as you can especially FALJC and the Admin Law Judge Conference of the ABA and attend their meetings. You will meet the people that can help you make the switch. You have to have a backgroud in the suject matter of the hiring agency but you can get a leg up by knowing the judges who will be making the hiring decisions. Luck to everyone.
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Post by 71stretch on May 23, 2013 10:02:50 GMT -5
To be hired by the other agencies which hire off this register (there are those that do not), you need a high score and the right GAL, due to the far smaller number of positions and the limited locations of their offices.
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Post by Administrator ALJ on May 23, 2013 11:34:26 GMT -5
But for those of us who ultimately would like to be an ALJ for an agency that conducts adversarial civil litigation type proceedings (like the ITC and FTC), I don't think being a state ALJ or working at SSA is relevant. Those proceedings are very similar to complex antitrust and intellectual property litigation in federal court, and nothing like what SSA and state ALJs handle (unless you are a state ALJ that hears consumer protection cases). I would strongly disagree, at least in the case of being a state ALJ. I work for an agency that only handles adversarial proceedings, and we deal with very complex cases involving millions of dollars in judgments. If that's not relevant to agencies like ITC or FTC, then I don't know what is.
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Post by gunner on May 24, 2013 9:24:28 GMT -5
To be hired by the other agencies which hire off this register (there are those that do not), you need a high score and the right GAL, due to the far smaller number of positions and the limited locations of their offices. This is actually quite encouraging. I think I have the kind of credentials that would stand out, and leaving my present position to be one of thousands of SSA ALJs in nonadversarial hearings seems like too much of a crapshoot if what I really wanted was a more trial-judge-like judge position. Is there any way, if you knew the right people at the right agencies, to ensure that they would be able to consider you if they decided to hire off the register?
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sxsw
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Post by sxsw on Aug 29, 2013 13:52:22 GMT -5
Aljfaq, glad to see you are still with us. There were a number of private practice attorneys in my testing group, as well.
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Post by sealaw90 on Aug 29, 2013 15:11:24 GMT -5
In case anybody cares, I went ahead and sprung for the plane tickets and hotel reservation to DC for my WD/SI set for September. I figure I can afford it, so there's no reason not to keep the door open for that 1/1000 chance that the right opportunity at the right agency in the right place arises. I am glad you are going to keep the door open. By the time you get on a cert, things may change for you where an ALJ gig, even at SSA, would be a nice change of pace. As most of us have found out, money doesn't always buy happiness. I have read so much on this blog that it appears to me that timing, luck and mostly being a top-notch ALJ gets you the opportunity to move to another agency. Sometimes I loved private practice, but there's also a certain satisfaction of a good days work on behalf of the taxpayer that makes government work worthwhile. Oh, and the much shorter work week and not living your life in 6 minute increments is a bonus with the government!! Good luck on Phase 3, I can't wait to see your post on the DC trip report.
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Post by funkyodar on Aug 29, 2013 16:50:32 GMT -5
Money doesn't buy happiness. But it leases it pretty nicely.
Smart move faq. I hope you get the litigation agency noncrapland job you want.
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Post by minny on Aug 30, 2013 7:34:06 GMT -5
Just read a blurb about a ALJ who worked for SSA for two years and then went to NLRB . . . Question, I really like my job and quite frankly, if I did make it to a cert would not want to leave early next year (recognize this is putting cart before horse). Can you turn down an cert spot and then get on it again later when there are other openings? harry, I'd be very cautious about doing that because, from what I have seen and heard, the NLRB expects to get its ALJ's from the ranks of existing ALJ's, not from the register. They just recently had a posting for an ALJ and it was only open to existing and former ALJ's. I am hoping that with the new testing and emphasis on litigation experience that some of these agencies with adversarial proceedings will pull from the register, but I'm not counting on it.
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Post by privateatty on Aug 30, 2013 8:06:30 GMT -5
Workdrone, don't be so harsh and demanding of the gents. I have been around for a loooonnnng time and do know of hires off the register especially by those agencies that are very particular ie: SEC, DOJ, DEA, Coast Guard, etc. But as to listing the year or the number of ALJs, I couldn't even begin to remember. I have met many at FALJC gatherings but couldn't give you the information you seem to demand, but they do exist. I am not aware of any mass hirings such as happened when OMHA was created since other agencies use very few ALJs. DOL hires some but mostly from OHA/ODAR. It would be a simple task for you to look at the agencies websites and pull up the resumes of the ALJs to see what their past experience involved. For all of you who are wantabes, do not think you wll be hired by an agency other than SSA. It is rare. Also don't expect to transfer to another agency from SSA because that is also a rare happenstance. If you are hired by SSA to become an ALJ and want to transfer, you have to network as much as possible and join as many organizations as you can especially FALJC and the Admin Law Judge Conference of the ABA and attend their meetings. You will meet the people that can help you make the switch. You have to have a backgroud in the suject matter of the hiring agency but you can get a leg up by knowing the judges who will be making the hiring decisions. Luck to everyone. Thank you goodoleboy47. The 'drone had a point to make and he made it. But I do appreciate a good defense. Your analysis is spot on and good advice to those posters who want to be ALJs, but not necessarily with SSA.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2013 8:09:55 GMT -5
Just read a blurb about a ALJ who worked for SSA for two years and then went to NLRB . . . Question, I really like my job and quite frankly, if I did make it to a cert would not want to leave early next year (recognize this is putting cart before horse). Can you turn down an cert spot and then get on it again later when there are other openings? harry, I'd be very cautious about doing that because, from what I have seen and heard, the NLRB expects to get its ALJ's from the ranks of existing ALJ's, not from the register. They just recently had a posting for an ALJ and it was only open to existing and former ALJ's. I am hoping that with the new testing and emphasis on litigation experience that some of these agencies with adversarial proceedings will pull from the register, but I'm not counting on it. Minny, I believe you are on target with the litigation experience suspicions. We have really not discussed the fact that this application process provided us the ability to submit significant litigation cases. I suspect that this was done for the benefit of and at the request of other agencies who would like to hire right from the register.
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Post by privateatty on Aug 30, 2013 8:23:00 GMT -5
harry, I'd be very cautious about doing that because, from what I have seen and heard, the NLRB expects to get its ALJ's from the ranks of existing ALJ's, not from the register. They just recently had a posting for an ALJ and it was only open to existing and former ALJ's. I am hoping that with the new testing and emphasis on litigation experience that some of these agencies with adversarial proceedings will pull from the register, but I'm not counting on it. Minny, I believe you are on target with the litigation experience suspicions. We have really not discussed the fact that this application process provided us the ability to submit significant litigation cases. I suspect that this was done for the benefit of and at the request of other agencies who would like to hire right from the register. Not to throw water on your theory, exafjag, but the fact remains that very few Agencies hire off the Register and pull certs--usually only when they have to. And sometimes, as chinook points out, they don't like what they get; i.e., those without litigation experience for a job that requires that on your Resume. Now, it is true that the Agencies and a few organiizations wanted the present exam process to reward such experience and there is anecdotal evidence on this Board that those who have advanced have done a bit more than write decisions, but the dust is still in the air and has not yet settled. What has happened is that the ALJ job with a non-SSA Agency will get posted on USAJobs. Then, the Agency may either not like who applied or not have enough applicants to suit them and pull a Cert. In addition there have been instances of Agencies making hires without posting on ALJJobs, but I'm not sure how they get away with that other than the fact that no one is calling them on it as they keep under the radar. OPM is not known for finding and picking fights.
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Post by 71stretch on Aug 30, 2013 10:27:22 GMT -5
Just read a blurb about a ALJ who worked for SSA for two years and then went to NLRB . . . Question, I really like my job and quite frankly, if I did make it to a cert would not want to leave early next year (recognize this is putting cart before horse). Can you turn down an cert spot and then get on it again later when there are other openings? There's no reason, and I don't think, any mechanism, to take yourself off a particular cert unless you mark "decline" on the list of cities from your GAL that are on the cert, which they sent you when you make a cert. Then, those cities are off your GAL FOR EVERY AGENCY until there's an opportunity to expand your GAL. You may not want to do that, especially if you have cities on your GAL that have offices for those other agencies-- you don't want to knock those off your cert just because you want to get off a particular SSA cert to wait for a later opportunity.
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Post by lifelongdc on Aug 30, 2013 10:41:56 GMT -5
What exactly ARE the "most desirable cities"? Any info on that?
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Post by hopefalj on Aug 30, 2013 10:57:56 GMT -5
What exactly ARE the "most desirable cities"? Any info on that? I would suggest the offices on the list on the linked page with the most transfer requests would be the most desirable cities. Transfer list thread
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Post by sealaw90 on Aug 30, 2013 11:00:03 GMT -5
What exactly ARE the "most desirable cities"? Any info on that? Lifelong, I bumped a thread from March 2013 on "popular" locations for you - there's some good information in there that might answer your question.
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Post by funkyodar on Aug 30, 2013 14:27:28 GMT -5
NEW STRATEGY, feedback welcome: I was reluctant to disclose this on the board for fear of copycats ruining the strategy or rules changing to foreclose it, but I really want to get some feed back from those in the know about it: Suppose I make the register, I want to work for agency XXX that does not hire off the register, get hired by SSA so that I am appointed an "Administrative Law Judge," decide that I cannot stand working there, quit, go back to private practice in biglaw for 2 years litigating cases with agency XXX, and then notice an ALJ job posting at agency XXX that is open only to current or former ALJs. Am I (a) eligible to apply for the ALJ posting and (b) more or less likely to get it than I would have been had I stayed at SSA for two years? Plan may work. Assuming no one at SSA ever connects you with this post.
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