Total ALJs hired from the Register since 2008.

[moopigsdad]

Please see the attached link OIG Report which states (see Appendix H or pages 30 and 31) that there were 839 new ALJs hired for SSA from the OPM Register between the years of 2008 through 2012 (13 others were hired through other agencies or reimstatements). This would mean they are only 596 ALJs presently in the system who were hired prior to 2008 from the Register or other sources. Also, you might want to look at Appendix G or page 29 for the totals of all Federal ALJs in all agencies for the U.S. Government.

If there are only 596 ALJs hired before 2008 in the system there is not likely to be a mass exodus of ALJs leaving in the near future. Furthermore, another 371 SSA ALJs were hired between 2002 and 2007, which means there are only 225 SSA ALJs who are in the system longer than 11 plus years right now. There is likely to be a lot less hiring than many people thought for SSA over the next several years unless SSA is able to create many more new ALJ positions throughout the U.S.. The last OPM Register seemed to be the correct Register to be on in terms of hiring the greatest number of ALJs for SSA. Just passing on some interesting facts to those in the testing process now.

[funkyodar]

All correct and there certainly won't be the need for as many hires in the next few years as there were in the last few.

But this info doesn't mean the "mass exodus" expected over the next 2 years due to the sick time computation and retirement impact won't happen.

Most of those new aljs hired were older that had already retired fromone job or had a long period in the gov retirement sytem when they were hired. Thus, the fact that so many were hired since 2008 and even more since 2002 doesn't mean those hires aren't in the retirement zone.

[funkyodar]

As an example, my office got 4 new judges since 2008. one was in his 60s and already retired. 2 more were late 50s (early 60s now)and both are very interested in taking one of the frequently offered "early out" opportunities. of the 4, only 1 will likely be here in the next 3 years. He was late 30s when hired.

[funkyodar]

It would be nice to know the average age of the alj corp and the average alj career duration. would the union have those stats?

[Deleted]

There are also ALJs with prior Federal time who will hit either their 30 with MRA or 20 years of service with 60 or 5 years of service at 62 who could technically pull the plug.

The ALJs in the law suit and who testified at the recent subcommitte hearing who took issue with the productivity requirement of the position seemed to be predominatly from another era. Is it fair to asume that the ~800+ new ALJs hired since 08 are making their numbers?

[moopigsdad]

Jul 31, 2013 15:04:51 GMT -5 funkyodar said:

All correct and there certainly won't be the need for as many hires in the next few years as there were in the last few.

But this info doesn't mean the "mass exodus" expected over the next 2 years due to the sick time computation and retirement impact won't happen.

Most of those new aljs hired were older that had already retired fromone job or had a long period in the gov retirement sytem when they were hired. Thus, the fact that so many were hired since 2008 and even more since 2002 doesn't mean those hires aren't in the retirement zone.

This is true funky, but I think the numbers will be lower than some people think. Will there be hiring of some ALJs? Most likely there will be hiring, but in lower numbers for several reasons including sequester, only back-filling a third of those ALJs lost as a general practice as can be seen by the current cert., and likely not as many retirements with the economy being where it is today. If you are an ALJ and over 65 with past Federal service you might leave, then again you might stick around and earn $165,000 a year for a while when the economy is not so good. Then again, if things get too hairy and more work is expected from ALJs in the future, the numbers of retirees may go up. A lot of factors can determine how many vacancies there will be over the next two or three years, but I think we may have missed the golden hiring period by one Register (of course those not hired off the present Register would disagree with that characterization).

[funkyodar]

I agree that the level of hiring done from the last register won't be seen again for a while. The sequester and congressional deadlock will see to that. plus, and this is purely based on my own thoughts and comments from some insiders I know in region and central, ssa may not be overly pleased with opms focus on litigation and the lack of insiders that will be on this register as a result and when compared to the last register. this leads to some speculation that ssa will bide its time in regard to alj hiring until it can somehow pressure opm into letting more insiders on through refreshes appeals or a whole new register based on more insider friendly testing.

This conspiracy theory plays hand in glove with the feeling that all this new emphasis on quality, neutering the saa program and supposed deemphasis on dispositional goals is ssa's method of letting the backlog grow till it once again forces congress to pony upthe funds . if that is truly the plan, why not delay hiring aljs as part of it?

Still, I think we have a few things going for us. One, this is a new system and surely they will want to play with it. Two, the sick time change will have a big effect on the number of retirements and three, the sequester and budget bs can't last forever.

[moopigsdad]

Jul 31, 2013 15:37:07 GMT -5 funkyodar said:

I agree that the level of hiring done from the last register won't be seen again for a while. The sequester and congressional deadlock will see to that. plus, and this is purely based on my own thoughts and comments from some insiders I know in region and central, ssa may not be overly pleased with opms focus on litigation and the lack of insiders that will be on this register as a result and when compared to the last register. this leads to some speculation that ssa will bide its time in regard to alj hiring until it can somehow pressure opm into letting more insiders on through refreshes appeals or a whole new register based on more insider friendly testing.

This conspiracy theory plays hand in glove with the feeling that all this new emphasis on quality, neutering the saa program and supposed deemphasis on dispositional goals is ssa's method of letting the backlog grow till it once again forces congress to pony upthe funds . if that is truly the plan, why not delay hiring aljs as part of it?

Still, I think we have a few things going for us. One, this is a new system and surely they will want to play with it. Two, the sick time change will have a big effect on the number of retirements and three, the sequester and budget bs can't last forever.

I will take your word for it buddy. I guess I was looking at it with my glass half-empty rather than with my glass half-full. I am just trying to paint a realistic picture for those going through the process who think just by acquiring a NOR on the Register they may garner themselves a position. I am asking those in the testing process to please be realistic and understand that you may never acquire an ALJ position. As a matter of fact, your chances an ALJ position may even be less than in the past Registers.

[bartleby]

The figure the Agency has decided on is about 10% retiring per year. Now, considering that management is having a top secret telephone conference tomorrow dealing strickly with how to punish ALJ's, I think it may be more than 10% for the next year or two. many are upset with the way things are going. The new Contract calls for flexiplace to be based upon production. This will not sit well with the Judges. The Agency is attempting to find bigger and bigger sticks to beat us with and we are about tired of it. The micromanagement gets old. Do you really think someone that has gone to college, law school, and had some kind of success for at least 7 years really needs to be micromanaged?? Many new Judges have completed enough Government time to retire and are only waiting to get their high three.. Watch the exodus..

[moopigsdad]

Jul 31, 2013 15:47:39 GMT -5 bartleby said:

The figure the Agency has decided on is about 10% retiring per year. Now, considering that management is having a top secret telephone conference tomorrow dealing strickly with how to punish ALJ's, I think it may be more than 10% for the next year or two. many are upset with the way things are going. The new Contract calls for flexiplace to be based upon production. This will not sit well with the Judges. The Agency is attempting to find bigger and bigger sticks to beat us with and we are about tired of it. The micromanagement gets old. Do you really think someone that has gone to college, law school, and had some kind of success for at least 7 years really needs to be micromanaged?? Many new Judges have completed enough Government time to retire and are only waiting to get their high three.. Watch the exodus..

I will be watching and waiting, but not counting my chickens before they hatch. So, bartleby would you consider leaving the ALJ position in the next couple of years to retire?

[southeastalj]

Jul 31, 2013 15:12:43 GMT -5 @exafjag said:

There are also ALJs with prior Federal time who will hit either their 30 with MRA or 20 years of service with 60 or 5 years of service at 62 who could technically pull the plug.

The ALJs in the law suit and who testified at the recent subcommitte hearing who took issue with the productivity requirement of the position seemed to be predominatly from another era. Is it fair to asume that the ~800+ new ALJs hired since 08 are making their numbers?

A majority of ALJ's issue at least 500 dispositions per year. You are correct though in your guess that among ALJ's hired since 2008 the % is higher than it is among the corps as a whole. I think I've heard it is somewhere between 75-80% of ALJ's hired since 2008 and out of their learning curve issue at least 500 dispositions but I cannot give you a cite for that.

[sportsfan]

Jul 31, 2013 15:47:39 GMT -5 bartleby said:

The figure the Agency has decided on is about 10% retiring per year. Now, considering that management is having a top secret telephone conference tomorrow dealing strickly with how to punish ALJ's, I think it may be more than 10% for the next year or two. many are upset with the way things are going. The new Contract calls for flexiplace to be based upon production. This will not sit well with the Judges. The Agency is attempting to find bigger and bigger sticks to beat us with and we are about tired of it. The micromanagement gets old. Do you really think someone that has gone to college, law school, and had some kind of success for at least 7 years really needs to be micromanaged?? Many new Judges have completed enough Government time to retire and are only waiting to get their high three.. Watch the exodus..

Bartleby - since you seem to know a lot about what is going on, is it possible that the reason for the new testing and possible large register to come this time around (hope I'm included) is that: (1) SSA/ODAR may at some point be able to add ALJs (beyond retirements/attrition) to really focus in on attacking the large amount of cases/backlog of cases; and (2) other agencies with ALJs may take more advantage of the new register now that the testing had a different focus? As an "outsider" just curious? I would assume that either one could be a game changer to increasing the numbers of ALJs hired on the new register?

[bartleby]

It all depends upon the next move by management. I enjoy the work, but it ain't all that it is cracked up to be... A man still has to be able to look at himself in the mirror at the end of the day. When I can no longer do what I feel is required to conduct a fair and proper hearing by being properly prepared, I will vamoose, heading further South to meet with my old Buddy, the most interesting man in the world, where he will drink Dos Equis and I will attempt to find draft Tres Equis, and discuss our ventures since our college days in the Rio Grande. There is more to life than work and one's integrity is utmost. My Friend and I will have "I did it my way" sung at our final sunset and you all will miss us dearly.

[bartleby]

The above post was for MPD, however, Sportsfan, I doubt that SSA will increase the number of ALJs in the Corps. They truly think they can do more with less if they have a big enough stick. Other Agencies are able to pick up the people they want with the normal Register/Cert as almost anyone that becomes an ALJ becomes a SSA ALJ and the other Agencies lose good attorneys to SSA, just to pick them up later as ALJs.

[moopigsdad]

Jul 31, 2013 16:23:41 GMT -5 bartleby said:

It all depends upon the next move by management. I enjoy the work, but it ain't all that it is cracked up to be... A man still has to be able to look at himself in the mirror at the end of the day. When I can no longer do what I feel is required to conduct a fair and proper hearing by being properly prepared, I will vamoose, heading further South to meet with my old Buddy, the most interesting man in the world, where he will drink Dos Equis and I will attempt to find draft Tres Equis, and discuss our ventures since our college days in the Rio Grande. There is more to life than work and one's integrity is utmost. My Friend and I will have "I did it my way" sung at our final sunset and you all will miss us dearly.

Actually, I hope you wouldn't leave. Maybe you should stick around just to put your finger in management's eye. I would miss the sage advice and insider information. Let's hope things don't get that bad to force you to leave.

[71stretch]

One other factor that means less hiring than in the past few years is the number of new offices that had to be staffed, which really bumped up the size of the hires, particularly in 2010-2011. Other planned new offices were put on hold, and with the overall money picture and the sequester on top of it, those offices are not likely to happen.

If bartleby is correct, a fair number of judges, perhaps more than the expected ten percent per year, will say enough and take their pension and go.

[workdrone]

Jul 31, 2013 15:47:39 GMT -5 bartleby said:

Watch the exodus..

And I'm sure the openings will be filled promptly by new hires like they have been during the last 5 years. There are plenty of folks who are willing, ready, and able to take our spots if given the opportunity. Don't delude yourself thinking that we're anything special, all of us are replaceable and will be replaced someday.

[bartleby]

Workdrone, I totally concur. We are replaceable, but, with each new class that comes through, there is an erosion of the standards and professionalism of the Corps in my eyes. Someone doing 20-25 hearings a month can and should do a better job in quality than some one turning out 50-60 hearings a month. It's only logical.

[workdrone]

Jul 31, 2013 19:12:49 GMT -5 bartleby said:

Workdrone, I totally concur. We are replaceable, but, with each new class that comes through, there is an erosion of the standards and professionalism of the Corps in my eyes. Someone doing 20-25 hearings a month can and should do a better job in quality than some one turning out 50-60 hearings a month. It's only logical.

I have to disagree. As someone who was hired as an ALJ prior to HPI, I think the new judges that were hired from 2008 are much better vetted than some of the dead weights that came through the doors in the past.

Exhibit 1: law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/cafc/11-3177/11-3177-2012-12-28.html

Exhibit 2: www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/09-3287.pdf

Exhibit 3: www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/09-3127.pdf

And would you claim that Mr. Shapiro was doing a much better job in quality than someone turning out 50-60 hearings month?

"Can" and "should" doesn't always translate well into reality, as Mr. Shapiro's sad saga shows.

I also find your comments about quality has gone down with each new class VERY ironic since you only became an ALJ 2 years ago. Are you saying that quality went down after you were hired in 2011? While you were an attorney with ODAR for 14 years prior to becoming an ALJ, it still doesn't give you the right to act like you have been a judge forever. Looks like robe fever got to you a bit too soon.

The world is always changing, and when it has change to the point where you can no longer adjust to it or put up with it, it's time to do the honorable thing and leave for greener pastures. Stay frosty, amigo.

[moopigsdad]

Jul 31, 2013 19:36:03 GMT -5 workdrone said:

Jul 31, 2013 19:12:49 GMT -5 bartleby said:

Workdrone, I totally concur. We are replaceable, but, with each new class that comes through, there is an erosion of the standards and professionalism of the Corps in my eyes. Someone doing 20-25 hearings a month can and should do a better job in quality than some one turning out 50-60 hearings a month. It's only logical.

I have to disagree. I think the new judges that came in in the last few years are much better vetted than some of the dead weights that came through the doors in the past.

Exhibit 1: law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/cafc/11-3177/11-3177-2012-12-28.html

Exhibit 2: www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/09-3287.pdf

Exhibit 3: www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/09-3127.pdf

And would you claim that Mr. Shapiro was doing a much better job in quality than someone turning out 50-60 hearings month?

"Can" and "Should" doesn't always translate well into reality, as Mr. Shapiro's sad saga shows. The world is always changing, and when it has change to the point where you can no longer adjust to it or put up with it, it's time to do the honorable thing and leave for greener pastures.

There are good and bad in every occupation. I think bartleby's assumption that someone producing 25 decisions will do a better job than someone producing 50 decisions isn't correct. The quality of the decision isn't decided solely by how long it took to produce it.