Odar management a plus for alj chances?

[funkyodar]

Ok friendly board community, funky has a new question.

One of the group supervisors in my office is leaving soon. Those positions are gs13, the same as my current senior attorney position. My hocalj has encouraged me to apply. He wants an attorneyin management and no thers appear interested. He knows about my attempt at alj and supports it. He started with odar 30 yeaRs ago, made senior and tried for alj unsucessfuly several times. Ultimately he took a group sup gig then a hod job and then applied again for alj and got it. He thinks he would not have made alj without the management experience but admits it may have just been to floodgates that opened for insiders in 2009. So, with the likelihood of sitting on the register for quite a while, his suggestion is to try for the sup job and if I get it my chances at alj will just increase.

Good argument, but here is the counter. I have no desire to be a sup. I would have to give up work from home and ot and take on responsibilities I gladly gave up when I closed my private practice and ran for federal cover. All for almost no more $ (maybe a single step increase).

If I miss out on alj, I'm pretty sure I would hate being stuck in management. Contrarily,it wouldn't be the end of the world to be stuck at senior for a while longer. Still,if a brief stint in management drastically boosts my chances at alj....it may be worth the change.

Thoughts? opinions? (I do note that the only insider I personally know that was hired last week was a group sup not a senior attorney.)

[philliesfan]

Funky, I was a Supervisory Attorney Adviser and GS for 23 years. It didn't seem to do me any good. I was a Senior Attorney when I got the offer. I was glad to get out of management, I worked at home and got time and a half for overtime, so my annual pay went. Not to mention, I got more award money. Unless you have a burning desire to be in management, don't do it.

[funkyodar]

Aug 26, 2013 17:30:13 GMT -5 philliesfan said:

Funky, I was a Supervisory Attorney Adviser and GS for 23 years. It didn't seem to do me any good. I was a Senior Attorney when I got the offer. I was glad to get out of management, I worked at home and got time and a half for overtime, so my annual pay went. Not to mention, I got more award money. Unless you have a burning desire to be in management, don't do it.

Thanks PF. Thats the direction I'm leaning.

[chessparent]

I considered the same thing this past year but took a pass on the management opportunity. My rationale at the time was that the position would take me further afield from my goal of becoming an ALJ because managers manage people and AAs do legal work. Managers do become more familiar with the business processes-but I don't think it adds much to your legal resume. Don't know if it was the right choice or not-but I am in the race presently.

[hopefalj]

Aug 26, 2013 18:33:13 GMT -5 chessparent said:

I considered the same thing this past year but took a pass on the management opportunity. My rationale at the time was that the position would take me further afield from my goal of becoming an ALJ because managers manage people and AAs do legal work. Managers do become more familiar with the business processes-but I don't think it adds much to your legal resume. Don't know if it was the right choice or not-but I am in the race presently.

That is my thinking, too. Plus, I always assumed that any additional advantage in the hiring process gained by joining management is more than negated by the new set of headaches you'll inevitably encounter.

I assume that the HOCALJ's request is the primary reason you're considering the move, funky. Otherwise it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for someone who so wisely determined to stay in the pack rather than stand out over the years to suddenly seek more of the spotlight in a role where your success is almost entirely dependent on the performance of others. Of course, you know your office, so it might not be that bad there.

[funkyodar]

Thanks all. You are dead on right Faq. I worry the job is too exposed to the slings and arrows of others fortune. The hocalj's request is the only reason I am even considering throwing my hat in that ring. I do, however, think he believes the move would be in my best interest for the alj gig, given his history. I just dont want to get stuck as a Group Sup and, let's face it, the alj job is highly speculative at best. I will risk the expenses of DC, the time, the effort, the stress....but not sure I want to risk getting stuck in a managment gig.

Chess and PF, thanks. Your personal experiences are telling and confirm my intial thoughts on the deal.

SBB, I agree that teh senior attorney gig is the best at ODAR. With that said, it is nowhere near as good as it was 3 years ago and with the new changes it is only getting worse. Still, I have to think it is better than managment.

If someone had confirmed that they made alj only after spending some time in management (afterall, the SSA interview is muy importante and one would think someone in ODAR managment would have an edge in an interview designed to test the comfort level of the candidate with odar and odar with a candidate)I would strongly consider the change. But, with only my hocalj having such an experience, and him admitting that he may have got alj anyway given the massive insider hires that happened when he finally got an offer, it just doesnt seem to be worth the gamble.

Thanks for your input guys.

[JudgeRatty]

Aug 27, 2013 7:13:52 GMT -5 funkyodar said:

Thanks all. You are dead on right Faq. I worry the job is too exposed to the slings and arrows of others fortune. The hocalj's request is the only reason I am even considering throwing my hat in that ring. I do, however, think he believes the move would be in my best interest for the alj gig, given his history. I just dont want to get stuck as a Group Sup and, let's face it, the alj job is highly speculative at best. I will risk the expenses of DC, the time, the effort, the stress....but not sure I want to risk getting stuck in a managment gig.

Chess and PF, thanks. Your personal experiences are telling and confirm my intial thoughts on the deal.

SBB, I agree that teh senior attorney gig is the best at ODAR. With that said, it is nowhere near as good as it was 3 years ago and with the new changes it is only getting worse. Still, I have to think it is better than managment.

If someone had confirmed that they made alj only after spending some time in management (afterall, the SSA interview is muy importante and one would think someone in ODAR managment would have an edge in an interview designed to test the comfort level of the candidate with odar and odar with a candidate)I would strongly consider the change. But, with only my hocalj having such an experience, and him admitting that he may have got alj anyway given the massive insider hires that happened when he finally got an offer, it just doesnt seem to be worth the gamble.

Thanks for your input guys.

Funky, do both. Take the best of both worlds here. If you feel you may benefit from the Sup position for now in terms of the ALJ gig, take it. You don't have to die in that position. You can renounce it after a year if you hate it. They will generally put you back into your old position, or create one for you. In my office, a GS12 took the Sup position, did it for a year, stepped down and they put that person into a GS 12 step equivalent to the GS13 pay, so no loss. Think about your HOD's recommendation when you get on a cert...are they more likely to pat you on the back if you accept or deny the Sup job???

[zebra51]

If the announcement is not out yet perhaps inquire about taking it as a detail. If they have someone sitting in the position they are more likely to be slow putting the announcement out. A detail has an end date. That will give you more time to evaluate the process and make it easier to step back to the SAA position.

[eyre44]

I did both jobs also and I think my experience as a GS did help me get the ALJ job. In particular, the SSA interview was a breeze, since the interviewers are management and they know that you know exactly what is going on in ODAR workload wise, workflow wise, etc.

I found the GS job very challenging. Many people would find it too challenging. All of the issues you point out are valid, no flexiplace, much more stress, etc. However, I was bored with my SAA job, and was ready for the change. Once you are a GS, you will never be bored and your days will fly by. I think it all depends where you are in your life and in your job. I said for years that I never wanted to be in management, but that changed, and once I moved to management I was happy with the decision.

I will add one final point, I believe that if the ALJ selection committee is looking at two individuals for a position who are pretty closely matched, one with ODAR management experience and one without, they will most likely choose the individual with ODAR management experience first.  

[moopigsdad]

As an outsider my viewpoint is based upon common sense. There are positives and negatives with each position. However, the ALJ position is akin to the SAA position, not the management position. While, it is important to understand time constraints and other aspects of the position, you would know this from the SAA position. If one interviewer is a HOD and the other is a RCALJ or HOCALJ, then it should be a wash if you are a SAA or a GS-13.

I think the more important part is if you are stuck in the job for the foreseeable future, which one do you want to do the most? Sequestration could mean no hiring for a long time or only minimal hiring, which could lead to you being stuck in whatever position you choose for a few years or perhaps longer (if you don't get the nod). I would choose whatever position you would rather be in for a while. I think it is a relative wash as to whether you are a SAA or a GS-13, as to whether you acquire an ALJ position with SSA funky.

[mcb]

Anecdotally, There was at least one HOD in my class (Fall 2010). A group sup at my current ODAR was hired on as an ALJ at another ODAR last year.

[eyre44]

Aug 27, 2013 12:40:52 GMT -5 mcb said:

Anecdotally, There was at least one HOD in my class (Fall 2010). A group sup at my current ODAR was hired on as an ALJ at another ODAR last year.

I've never heard of a HOD who made a cert not being picked up during a hire. 

[eyre44]

Aug 27, 2013 12:39:55 GMT -5 moopigsdad said:

As an outsider my viewpoint is based upon common sense.

That's your problem right there...

[moopigsdad]

Aug 27, 2013 13:28:02 GMT -5 eyre44 said:

Aug 27, 2013 12:39:55 GMT -5 moopigsdad said:

As an outsider my viewpoint is based upon common sense.

That's your problem right there...

No, I think it ODARs and SSAs problem for not using it.

[valkyrie]

I think insider management experience is a moot issue with the new selection process. Based upon the limited number of insiders that advanced past the first part of the process, I think the selection committee will take any insider they can get that doesn't have a legitimate blackball against them, whether they are a staff attorney, senior attorney, management, or OGC. Last time around you had plenty of candidates with those positions that made it on to certs, but it was the management people who were hired first. Someone who has had an opportunity to view the program from a management perspective would have additional value at a time when SSA is getting so much scrutiny from Congress and the public. This time around OPM seemed to have simply valued gross years of legal experience, while giving heavier weight to litigation experience. After the 2008-2012 hirings, you will not find many people that fit that criteria in ODAR. Whether or not you agree with such a policy, or have ODAR management experience is irrelevant.

[funkyodar]

Been a bit swamped with end of the month today folks, but i really appreciate the input. i will read through your posts later tonite and bask more thoroughly in the advice than i was allowed today with the time constraints. Really, thanks a lot.

[trekker]

While there may not be a lot of true insiders who made it through the process this time around, there were a lot of government employees being tested in my group yesterday and today. There were also a fair number of ODAR and OGC attorneys. The insiders I met seemed to have limited GAL's for personal reasons. As others have said on different posts, everyone I met appeared to have outstanding credentials and I think the vast majority of them would be very good ALJ's. What would be different, is that they may be more shocked at the system than those of us who have been at this for a long time but I would bet that those who are chosen will adapt quickly and make it work. My perspective is from the rep side so I might be a little biased. I ate lunch with some insiders and I thought we had a good conversation about our experiences in the world of SSA litigation. I think the SSA management might be in for a surprise when some of the new candidates are interviewed.

[funkyodar]

This board is great. Thanks for the insight folks. Especially those that have tried management or consideredit themselves.

I think I am going to hold tight at senior attorney. While the jobisn't the peach it once was (more just a glorified writer now) it still pays the same as the group sup, has OT and flexiplace and doesn't have the management headaches. I've also been told that there is no plan to hire anymore seniors or even replace ones who move on. So, you AAs that want gs13 will have to go management and Ishouldn't do a lateral move that cuts off a gs13 slot for one that it would matter for.

Also, in my 4 years with the agency I have done 2 separate details in my office as a group sup. Those experiences taught me I would rather kiss MPD's dog than be a permanent group sup. Hopefully those 2 details, which I described extensively in my resume, will suffice to get me at least a portion of the management bump when hiring commences.

Again, thanks for all the great comments and advice. The real chance of getting stuckin a job I know I would hate is just too big a risk.

[dwfl]

There is currently a posting for a Senior Attorney position in Tallahassee. Is Senior Attorney replacement hiring ending next fiscal year?

Like you, I'm trying to talk myself out of heading into management.

[funkyodar]

If i was you and wanted the SAA position i would def apply for any that are now posted. Though,i do know of one such position in one office that went so far as having the BQL sent back from Region and then didnt fill the position. Wouldnt surprise me if the position you reference was approved before the last three of four months when the agency's philosophy on SAAs changed.

The rumor I actually heard (again, rumors so maybe completely wrong)is that the SAA program was essentially on life support. Apparently, when congress began throwing allegations of "paying down" the backlog, SSA had to scapegoat someone and the SAA program caught the heat. They did away with the VSU and replaced it with some ridiculous review group of 7 SAAs that are supposed to review all the cases in the country and SAAs will only be able to pay a case OTR if it is recc by that group. I was actually told that they considered not reauthorizing the SAA program at all, but a quick history lesson made them at least keep it.

Apparently a decade or more ago, they essentially killed the SAA program. Most SAAs (except those that had progressed past the GS12 step scale) were returned to GS12 and regular writing. Those that had risen beyond the limits of GS12 were allowed to stay at GS 13 but also returned to regular writing. Two results quickly happene. First, the backlog quickly exploded. Second, those that were dropped back to 12 filed grievances and complaints pointing out that there was no justification for paying the others at 13 since they no longer had any additional duties over their GS12 bretheren. Ultimately, after a year or more, all of them were returned to GS13. When congress began yelling about the backlog, they recertified the SAA program as adjudicators.

So, with congress once again focusing on quality instead of the backlog, they again severely curtailed the SAA program. They weren't foolish enough to try and drop people back to GS12 this time, but they essentially neutered the adjuducative part of the program and now the justification for the SAA greater pay is that they will be responsible for the more difficult cases, training/mentoring and still have very limited adjudicative authority.

From what I have been told, they would have loved to kill the program for a bit, but didnt want the headaches. They do not plan to loosen the reigns on the program, hire any new SAAs or even replace the ones that leave for a while. Probably wont until the backlog again grows so large that congress starts complaining.

There may be an exception to the policy in very limited situations, but i would be surprised to se any SAA position filled in the near future. best chance may be a position that was authorized before the philosophy change and funded before next fiscal year.

Or, maybe everything I have heard through the grapevine is paranoid BS and all I just said is wrong. Maybe...