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Post by grandparay1 on Dec 30, 2013 14:42:47 GMT -5
Prior to sending out NOR's for the upcoming register, would OPM send notices to those on the current register indicating the termination of the register?
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Post by 71stretch on Dec 30, 2013 14:52:44 GMT -5
Prior to sending out NOR's for the upcoming register, would OPM send notices to those on the current register indicating the termination of the register? They may, but we all got notice when the new application opened up that it would terminate once the new one was done, whether we reapplied or not. I don't think it would necessarily happen (if it does) prior to the NORs going out. Could just as well be after, as there's no particular urgency to it.
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Post by funkyodar on Jan 1, 2014 9:37:41 GMT -5
It occurred to me that this is actually the fourth time we have awaited an email from opm.
The first was after phase 1 when we awaited emails telling us if we made it to phase 2. We saw app manager stats change and then it was pretty quick that we got the emails.
After phase 2, we again saw app manager changes and within a week received notification on whether we were cut or moving on to DC. This seems to be the sequence most think analogous to the current app manager changes and leading to the expectation of close nors.
But, its really not quite analogous. In each of those instances opm only sent 2 mass emails. One group got a form email cut the other a form email invite.
If you recall, there was quite a long wait between the DC "golden ticket" form emails and the more individualized emails telling each of us testing times and dates, ie applicant specific info.
As the next email will be highly subjective with our individual nors, seems its most analogous to that testing invite emails. So....maybe we shouldn't be thinking nors will come out soon after an app manager stat change but more like weeks or months after as the oneother time opm had to send us Iindividualized as opposed to form emails?
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true
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Post by true on Jan 1, 2014 10:01:08 GMT -5
I think that you are right Funky! At this stage everyone should get individualized emails. It stands to reason that even those who did not make a minimum score on the WD or SI would require individualized emails for appeals purpose. ( But then wouldn't applicants at phase I and II require this for appeals purposes) What would be the delay in sending out a general ineligible notice for failure to meet the minimum score? Also, in the past OPM still had to send individual NORs and still sent emails within 9 days for complete status. But, this process is different. Some are expecting another cut at this stage.
At the conclusion of Phase II, in addition to calculating scores and vet preferences, OPM had to coordinate activities with other ALJ interviewers, OPM personal, Hotel management, etc. But, at the conclusion of Phase III, they only have to calculate scores(which we assume they did already) and add vets preference.
The announcement reads that applicants who did not score in the higher subgroup will get NORs and appeals rights at the end of the examination.(At phase II) Therefore, OPM has to send the 3,000-4,000 other applicants notices as well. This should not be to difficult, since they are already scored. Maybe the difficult part may be calculating vets preference etc. But, it is unlikely that a huge amount of vets would have been cut at that level.
It is not entirely clear from the announcement if applicants who do not make the minimum score at phase III will only get a notice of ineligible and appeals rights or appeals rights and NORs (but just not placed on the register). But, I suspect that the final cut applicants will just get an ineligible notice with appeal rights.
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Post by pubdef on Jan 1, 2014 10:10:19 GMT -5
As the next email will be highly subjective with our individual nors, seems its most analogous to that testing invite emails. So....maybe we shouldn't be thinking nors will come out soon after an app manager stat change but more like weeks or months after as the oneother time opm had to send us Iindividualized as opposed to form emails? I didn't stay up until midnight to ring in the New Year, so when I opened my email this morning I was curious if there would be an email with my results. It wasn't there and I wasn't too surprised. I'm agreeing with you that this could be a longer wait than the changes to App Manager made many guess. I think the app manager changes probably reflect that all the scheduled testing is done. I don't think it reflects that they have actual scores for everyone finished or scores entered into anything. If they had scores finished I can't think of any reason they would delay releasing the scores, so I'm going with the more logical explanation that they are still working on scores. Once they have finished scoring everyone they will figure out what minimum scores will need to be and who didn't make the minimum required. Then they will release NORs to everyone
With that in mind, I'm not going to fret about my own score. I did the best I could given the testing and interview circumstances they created. Looking back on it all, of course I can think of things I would have done differently but that would probably be true for every critically thinking individual. As one of my old supervisors used to say, "it is what it is." Instead of waiting for my results I'm going to enjoy my present life. Good luck everyone and a happy new year!
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Post by moopigsdad on Jan 1, 2014 10:11:10 GMT -5
I resolve to be less concerned with when the NORs come out and more concerned about my actual NOR score. It doesn't matter if the NORs come out today, tomorrow, next week, next month, etc. as long as my NOR score is significant enough on the Register to allow me to interview for any open ALJ positions. I like this resolution. I have bigger issues coming up soon than to be worried about when?
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Post by funkyodar on Jan 3, 2014 16:23:03 GMT -5
I'm really trying to keep my resolve and not focus on it, but still find myself checking this board and my email spam folder frequently for some sign of nors.
I really thought today would be it. I do recall that I got either my phase 1 or 2 email after 10pm one friday nite.
Oh well....now I know how the claimants that wait incredibly long periods to get disability decisions feel. Maybe someone will hire some more aljs one day and give us all some relief.
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true
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Post by true on Jan 3, 2014 22:40:39 GMT -5
I'm really trying to keep my resolve and not focus on it, but still find myself checking this board and my email spam folder frequently for some sign of nors. I really thought today would be it. I do recall that I got either my phase 1 or 2 email after 10pm one friday nite. Oh well....now I know how the claimants that wait incredibly long periods to get disability decisions feel. Maybe someone will hire some more aljs one day and give us all some relief. Funky, I think we all secretly do that! But, I believe that someone gave somewhat compelling evidence that complete does not necessarily mean completed the WD, LBMT, and SI. Additionally, please look on the announcement under reasonable accommodation and please note the following. In the 2nd paragraph of please note, it tells you that your application is complete when the resume and assessment questionnaire is submitted and SJT, writing sample and experience assessment (described in competitive examination section) Have been completed. Nothing more! According to the aforementioned paragraph, I think that The application manager is referring to the assessment questionnaire and the experience assessment (external assessment) as being complete! And of course we know that the SJT and writing sample were scored at phase II.
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Post by funkyodar on Jan 3, 2014 23:14:49 GMT -5
True,
So you think the app manager changes to "complete" just mean that your initial assessment questionaire (phase 1) and sjt/writing sample/experience assessment (phase 2) is complete? So it doesn't mean that our grades on DC phase are in?
Sorry bro, can't buy that. First, there is the timing. The changes occurred soon after the last reported reschedulers completed DC testing. Also, past app manager changes have been followed pretty quickly by cuts/invites. For this theory to be right, the folks running the app manager updates would have to be hugely behind opm's graders and that just hasn't been the case.
Second, of course phase 2 is complete. It had to be complete before you could go to DC. Think about it. If "complete" just means phase 1 and 2 are complete, what does "see details" mean? Would have to mean there is some problem with one's AQ or phase 2 items. Thus, that persons phase 1 or 2 isn't "complete." But if that's the case, they would not have been in the "higher scored subgroup" and been invited to DC.
Maybe the "complete" just refers to checking the info you provided in the EA? That the experience assessment is the "external assessment" listed in app manager? Wouldn't pass gunner's "makes sense" test. If that is just now being done, that would mean they just let people do dc with no regard for what they put on the EA. like that aspect of phase 2 really didn't count as far as getting to DC. does that now indicate those in sd didn't do well on the EA?
No, I think the "external assessment" in app manager is all the testing and "complete" can only mean they have the scores. Maybe not everyone's (perhaps those are the folks in sd) but I think they have most if not all scores in. They just have no motivation to get them out quickly since no one is breathing down their throat to hire. So why send the nors and start everyone's appeal clock, thus creating more work for opm, until they have to?
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Post by jigjigjig on Jan 4, 2014 0:42:54 GMT -5
So, out of curiosity, has anyone asked their Senator or Congressperson about finding out the date OPM will release the scores? Usually, offices are pretty eager to help constituents and agencies usually scramble to reply quickly to congressional inquiries. I'm not anxious enough myself to ask. I'm kind of enjoying keeping the hope alive, but I was wondering if anyone else tried this route for info.
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Post by 71stretch on Jan 4, 2014 7:49:43 GMT -5
So, out of curiosity, has anyone asked their Senator or Congressperson about finding out the date OPM will release the scores? Usually, offices are pretty eager to help constituents and agencies usually scramble to reply quickly to congressional inquiries. I'm not anxious enough myself to ask. I'm kind of enjoying keeping the hope alive, but I was wondering if anyone else tried this route for info. It would never have crossed my mind to do so. So, no.
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true
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Post by true on Jan 4, 2014 7:54:56 GMT -5
Funky, what you are saying makes perfect sense, and I believe it is what we all believed when we saw the status change on the application manager. Also, you may be right that the external assessment is the cumulation of scores. Whatever it is, we know from the application manager that it was submitted in phase II in May and not due until 2015, although it is complete. If the folks who had see details in phase II had complete for external assessment that would be consistent with your theory. It would also explain why we were in awaiting results group because we needed all of the scores for the external assessment. I would prefer that you are right and I get my results sooner than later. But, I am fearful that the job announcement clearly says when the application package is complete, and if you click on explain this on the application manager, the definition it gives for complete is consistent with the job announcement definition. But, if you are right, then our scores are not due until 2015. Therefore, I decided not to worry about the scores as much.
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Post by 71stretch on Jan 4, 2014 8:34:20 GMT -5
I have no for sure idea what that 2015 date (which has been there all along) means. I have NEVER assumed, however, that it is a "scores due" date. There may have been a similar date out there in 2009-10. It may be a date to push a button to renew the register. (without opening applications). The last register had expiration dates that they kept extending.
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true
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Post by true on Jan 4, 2014 9:01:43 GMT -5
Thanks, observer. But, I don't necessarily believe that is when OPM has to release scores. I was trying to follow Funky's theory of the external assessment being the cumulation of all testing and scores. (which he may be right). So I looked at the dates that the AM states the external assessment was submitted and the dates it is due. This is my effort to try not to obsess over when they are coming out.
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Post by pubdef on Jan 4, 2014 9:24:32 GMT -5
Here is my quick thought on what it means on the application status where it shows Complete and Complete for the Status of the Assessment Questionnaire and for the External Assessment.
Those are only complete and complete for people who went to DC. What I think this means is that everyone who went to DC has now completed both of those. It does not mean that scores are finished being tabulated. Or maybe OPM has finished scoring but hasn't put them in the system.
The evidence I have to support that is that for someone who did not make it to DC her status on those shows Complete for the Assessment but NO RESULTS YET for the External Assessment. This information is very important to her because when there are results she will be able to appeal.
So for people where it matters it lets them know that the results are not in yet. For people who have completed the steps it lets us know that everything is complete.
The puzzle is still the See Details vs. Complete differences and I have no answers for it. Other than like I've said before it is what is is regarding my score. I can't change any of that now.
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Post by privateatty on Jan 4, 2014 10:48:01 GMT -5
So, out of curiosity, has anyone asked their Senator or Congressperson about finding out the date OPM will release the scores? Usually, offices are pretty eager to help constituents and agencies usually scramble to reply quickly to congressional inquiries. I'm not anxious enough myself to ask. I'm kind of enjoying keeping the hope alive, but I was wondering if anyone else tried this route for info. There are just so many ways OPM can trip you up. Even assuming arguendo that a Congress person's staff could what--hurry things along just for you (a rather doubtful proposition)--you have now become THAT person in the ALJ OPM office who generated a Congressional inquiry. And that assumes that one is generated regarding an executive function that appears to be running rather smoothly. Pateience, grasshopper. Being above the radar and subject to flak is no place for winged aircraft or an ALJ--even one in waiting. Trust me.
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Post by funkyodar on Jan 4, 2014 10:59:28 GMT -5
I think what the announcement means when it refers to your "application" being "complete" is different from what app manager means when it says "application processing stat: complete." To me the announcement is telling those wanting to apply what it would take to submit a complete app, ie a resume and responses to the AQ, vet docs if claiming a pref and any other supporting docs one wants but is not required.
Contrarily, the "app processing" mentioned in app manager refers to the actions of opm in "processing" your app. That is, checking for the 7 years, administering and scoring the "external assessments" if you qualified to take them etc. As to the 2015 date, I've just assumed that was a usual govt move. When opm started this project they had to tell someone when it would end. It was never expected to take 2 years, but if the PTB allowed for that long why not take it so you have plenty of time? Or that's the date they expect all appeals from cuts to be finished. or who knows.
The more I think about it, I think the delay is based on starting the appeals clock. Those cut at phase 1 and 2 were informed their appeals wouldn't be heard till after the register was set. There are a ton of those folks waiting for that date. Those cut at phase 1 won't get scores, per se, but those in cut in phase 2 will have to be told what their scores were and what the "higher scored subgroup" cut off was. Likewise, some will be cut at this phase. So, opm has several different types of emails to send out this time and each has to be carefully worded.
Once the select few that get an nor sufficent for register placement are on the reg, all opm has left to do in regard to them will be the pulling of certs. But, those that were cut at any phase will be innundating opm. Opm will then be in protect the new testing system and the new register mode. They will be deciding appeals and responding to congressional inquiries prompted by angry (possibly politically connected) constituents that were cut and all the while knowing that once someone's appeal is denied their right to sue begins. A lawsuit that may freeze the register and hiring like has happened before.
We have a new budget, but not individual appropriations from it yet. So no agency yet knows when or how many aljs they will hire off this shiny new list. If opm went ahead and set the new register, the appeals would have to be decided and its possible a lawsuit could freeze it before any agency gets its first cert. Why wouldn't they just hold off on giving the scores and setting the reg if there is no demand yet from the agencies and it holds back the tide of appeals?
That's my new theory anyway. We won't get nors till some agency signals they are ready and willing to hire. prolly have a new theory tomorrow, but that's todays paranoia.
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davef
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Post by davef on Jan 4, 2014 12:19:28 GMT -5
I think what the announcement means when it refers to your "application" being "complete" is different from what app manager means when it says "application processing stat: complete." To me the announcement is telling those wanting to apply what it would take to submit a complete app, ie a resume and responses to the AQ, vet docs if claiming a pref and any other supporting docs one wants but is not required. Contrarily, the "app processing" mentioned in app manager refers to the actions of opm in "processing" your app. That is, checking for the 7 years, administering and scoring the "external assessments" if you qualified to take them etc. As to the 2015 date, I've just assumed that was a usual govt move. When opm started this project they had to tell someone when it would end. It was never expected to take 2 years, but if the PTB allowed for that long why not take it so you have plenty of time? Or that's the date they expect all appeals from cuts to be finished. or who knows. The more I think about it, I think the delay is based on starting the appeals clock. Those cut at phase 1 and 2 were informed their appeals wouldn't be heard till after the register was set. There are a ton of those folks waiting for that date. Those cut at phase 1 won't get scores, per se, but those in cut in phase 2 will have to be told what their scores were and what the "higher scored subgroup" cut off was. Likewise, some will be cut at this phase. So, opm has several different types of emails to send out this time and each has to be carefully worded. Once the select few that get an nor sufficent for register placement are on the reg, all opm has left to do in regard to them will be the pulling of certs. But, those that were cut at any phase will be innundating opm. Opm will then be in protect the new testing system and the new register mode. They will be deciding appeals and responding to congressional inquiries prompted by angry (possibly politically connected) constituents that were cut and all the while knowing that once someone's appeal is denied their right to sue begins. A lawsuit that may freeze the register and hiring like has happened before. We have a new budget, but not individual appropriations from it yet. So no agency yet knows when or how many aljs they will hire off this shiny new list. If opm went ahead and set the new register, the appeals would have to be decided and its possible a lawsuit could freeze it before any agency gets its first cert. Why wouldn't they just hold off on giving the scores and setting the reg if there is no demand yet from the agencies and it holds back the tide of appeals? That's my new theory anyway. We won't get nors till some agency signals they are ready and willing to hire. prolly have a new theory tomorrow, but that's todays paranoia. We are normally on the same page here, but I'm not ready to jump to the conclusion that OPM is intentionally putting the brakes on the NORs. I believe the conplete external assessment and application processing status mean exactly that. (Unfortunately I also believe that the simpleist explanation for SD is exactly what it meant in the last two rounds). We know from previously in this process, as well as from tests past, that the change in application status always occurs prior to any notification. However, we also know there is allways a gap of a few days, up to a couple weeks. I assume this is due to OPM getting everything lined up to send the mass emails out. In this case, the wait will likely be compounded by a couple of holidays. I still think NORs are imminent. When we haven't received anything two weeks from now I will be ready to jump on the Funky bandwagon.
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Post by anotherfed on Jan 4, 2014 12:33:22 GMT -5
Building off funkyodar's post, is it possible that, as scoring is completed for an applicant, the status changes to "complete?" And that the new "see details tab" isn't bad news, but just an indication that OPM scoring isn't complete yet? Under this theory, and assuming our poll is accurate, the status changes could be a measure of how close we are getting to the end of the process -- scoring is complete for 75% of applicants, only 25% to go. From that, we could possibly extrapolate a date for total completion (a task I will leave to our geekier colleagues). It also occurs to me that, even after individual scoring is done, all the scores have to be ranked by whatever twisted methodology OPM chooses to use. I think I have Stockholm Syndrome .... I'm actually trying to make allowances for OPM's delays. <sigh>
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Post by redsox1 on Jan 4, 2014 13:42:58 GMT -5
Usually you are spot on so maybe you are here but .... I don't think that OPM is all that nervous about appeals. Individually, they are time consuming but probably not particularly difficult. I think they have a template for most of the concerns raised. It's likely a boondoggle for former ALJ consultants on another agencies nickel. The 800 lb gorilla is the new VP. That issue will probably be teed up for Court regardless of when the NOR's come out because, as we know, a lot of really good, and now PO'ed, attorneys did not make the trip to DC. I suspect most believe that a process challenge is the way to go and are going to come out swinging against the new VP. I believe that OPM ran this issue by counsel before rolling out a change like this so they may feel pretty confident in their position and have had a considerable time to shape the arguments. Time will tell. Here's hoping to an NOR soon.
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