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Post by funkyodar on May 16, 2015 21:54:11 GMT -5
Maybe it has something to do with wanting to seen more candidates in person? ... if they add more at the level they are doing, they have a chance to actually have the face to face OPM interview. Not sure. No doubt they made the decision for some reason and we may never know that reason. I suspect that at the second phase there was no true failing score, just a ranking with only those above a certain percentile allowed to move on, consistent with expected hiring needs. However at phase III, I think that OPM put in a minimum score that had be achieved on the SI and WD to advance any farther, that was not based on expected hiring needs but was simply a minimum acceptable score. If I remember correctly my invitation to phase III characterized it as a "skills demonstration". That would explain why they are doing this way. OPM can't change the rules at this stage, so if their internal guidance provides for a "ranking" rather than a "fail" at phase ii but does provide for a "fail" at phase iii, then they couldn't go back at this point at set a lower score for phase iii cut offs but they could allow for a lower score for phase ii, as that wasn't technically a disqualifying phase. That's my guess. Anyone who is really curious can file a FOIA request. I would anticipate it being answered sometime next century if you file it right away. I just got to this party and read my fine friend tiger's bombshell. Seems to me the above hits the nail precisely on the head. Those cut at the online stage were told they weren't in the "higher scored subgroup". All opm is doing now is lowering the threshold to get in that group. I assume the original cutoff score was an arbitrary number chosen to provide a number of candidates they then thought would be sufficient. Contrarily those cut at phase 1 were denied because someone somewhere judged them not to meet the minimum requirements. Only way to fix that is thru an appeal. Even more to the contrary those that were cut after the wd and si were cut for failing to make a "minimum required score" on those elements. We were all told of such requirements. The scores were not, I presume, arbitrary. The only thing that seems fair in that regard is to have appeal rights. And no one should worry about being leapfrogged. This new batch will be handicapped against those on the register by lower online scores which are part of the final nor. And as sratty and others mentioned those on the register now are all there is thru the next several rounds of hiring. As to tiger, I'd flame away but I don't wanna be seen as the type that would pick on the slow kid in class. And you owe me a beer.
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Post by moopigsdad on May 17, 2015 7:28:27 GMT -5
Good thing Tiger and you have some space between you in offices Funky. LOL!
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Post by westernalj on May 17, 2015 8:46:36 GMT -5
The new entrants will be handicapped by starting with lower scores, but leapfrogging will still occur. Because not all of the new entrants will have lower NORs than all of those currently on the register.
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Post by christina on May 17, 2015 9:00:05 GMT -5
now that i am no longer in a state of shock over this, i will post. i have not read all comments. i saw one that people currently on register will have a head start over those now allowed to proceed with testing. i agree. id say most or all of this fiscal year's hires will come from those already on the list. Second, i hope people are allowed to expand GAL's.
Third, don't forget that some, perhaps many of these new people, may have only missed the cutoff by one or two points. for the sake of argument, let's say a person with a preliminary score of "20" out of 33(let's also assume the online, written portion, and structured interview are all worth 33.3 points each) made it to next round of testing. i hope no one seriously plans to argue that a person with an 18 or 19 is far less qualified than a person who scored a 20 or 21.
last, i understand that those who are currently on the register are frustrated. it is a pain in the a... to sit on the register or a cert for any length of time and to learn new, perhaps lots of new, people will be eventually added, would be beyond frustrating.
also, i want to clarify i am not assuming anyone still waiting to be an ALJ barely made it past the online component. my point above is there would be minimal difference between people with similar scores.
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Post by hilltopper on May 17, 2015 19:49:15 GMT -5
Good thing Tiger and you have some space between you in offices Funky. LOL! Actually, their offices are right next to each other. And when Tiger is transferred at the end of the month, Funky says he is moving into the Tiger Den. ht
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Post by cheesy on May 17, 2015 21:03:14 GMT -5
Good thing Tiger and you have some space between you in offices Funky. LOL! Actually, their offices are right next to each other. And when Tiger is transferred at the end of the month, Funky says he is moving into the Tiger Den. ht We all know what a tiger leaves behind after he vacates his den... That's right. A funky odar.
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Post by Gaidin on May 17, 2015 21:29:06 GMT -5
I think one thing people need to focus on is that this not ODAR telling OPM they don't like the people on the register this is OPM telling the agencies there aren't enough candidates because we didn't anticipate how much hiring has occurred or the number of locations hired for or some other factor.
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Post by Missundaztood on May 17, 2015 22:32:38 GMT -5
I think one thing people need to focus on is that this not ODAR telling OPM they don't like the people on the register this is OPM telling the agencies there aren't enough candidates because we didn't anticipate how much hiring has occurred or the number of locations hired for or some other factor. Absolutely. Consider OMHA. It traditionally only hires maybe about dozen from a register in total but the next fiscal year has asked for money to hire 100+ new ALJs! I suspect that wasn't considered when OPM put together the register number. So OPM needs to have a big enough register if that funding is approved. A lot changes during the course of a register!
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Post by montyburns on May 17, 2015 22:40:06 GMT -5
After thinking it over and digesting this information, I have come to the conclusion that this is actually terrible news for most applicants, and certainly myself (i.e. those cut off at the experience step or low scorers on the SJ online portion). Those selected for the WD/SI will, on the average, have lower scores than those currently on register. So while they get on, it really doesn't mean much in terms of getting a job. There will be exceptions of course, but the net effect of this will only be to delay reopening the application process, which I had already anticipated to be 2019-2025ish. I will have aged out of realistic consideration at that point, so this news is actually the death knell of my hopes of becoming an ALJ, which, of course, were slim to none anyway. If you are already on the register, I would think this news is pretty much no news. Good luck to you, and please don't suck at your job if you get it, it makes mine so much harder when you do.
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Post by 71stretch on May 18, 2015 1:13:37 GMT -5
After thinking it over and digesting this information, I have come to the conclusion that this is actually terrible news for most applicants, and certainly myself (i.e. those cut off at the experience step or low scorers on the SJ online portion). Those selected for the WD/SI will, on the average, have lower scores than those currently on register. So while they get on, it really doesn't mean much in terms of getting a job. There will be exceptions of course, but the net effect of this will only be to delay reopening the application process, which I had already anticipated to be 2019-2025ish. I will have aged out of realistic consideration at that point, so this news is actually the death knell of my hopes of becoming an ALJ, which, of course, were slim to none anyway. If you are already on the register, I would think this news is pretty much no news. Good luck to you, and please don't suck at your job if you get it, it makes mine so much harder when you do. The register will open again before 2019, no matter how this new wrinkle plays out.
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Post by Pixie on May 18, 2015 6:43:15 GMT -5
Those selected for the WD/SI will, on the average, have lower scores than those currently on register. So while they get on, it really doesn't mean much in terms of getting a job. I may not be understanding the above portion of your post, but it appears as if you are assuming that scores are important to SSA. They aren't. The only agency that feels the scores are important is OPM. A score is important for a candidate to make a certificate, and it is important if a veteran is ahead of a candidate on a certificate, but SSA has ways to work around this. If the agency wants a candidate who makes a certificate, in the past it has usually has been able to reach that candidate. It may be more difficult now because of the manner in which the certificates are sent to the agency, but I have no insider information about that. We have discussed this ad nauseam in the past, and I don't want to re-kindle the debate. Nor do I want to hijack this thread, but I have noticed the idea that the lower scoring candidates will be disadvantaged to be wafting through the discussions. The only candidates disadvantaged will be the ones currently on the register as they will face increased competition from the new candidates being added to the register. Pixie
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Post by moopigsdad on May 18, 2015 7:31:33 GMT -5
I think one thing people need to focus on is that this not ODAR telling OPM they don't like the people on the register this is OPM telling the agencies there aren't enough candidates because we didn't anticipate how much hiring has occurred or the number of locations hired for or some other factor. Absolutely. Consider OMHA. It traditionally only hires maybe about dozen from a register in total but the next fiscal year has asked for money to hire 100+ new ALJs! I suspect that wasn't considered when OPM put together the register number. So OPM needs to have a big enough register if that funding is approved. A lot changes during the course of a register! I think Gaidin and Miss are right on the mark with their posts here. There will be a greater need for candidates into the next fiscal year, so re-adjusting SJT scoring to allow additional people to take the WD/SI will create a great pool of candidates for OMHA and SSA to choose from in the future. Without this change, there would need to be an immediate refresh of the Register and that wouldn't allow anybody onto the refreshed Register until 2017 at the earliest. (By the way, I do expect OPM to start processing appeals from the testing process prior to the end of the calendar year.) Lastly, as my friend Sratty states it is a great time to be on the Register.
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Post by hopingforalj on May 18, 2015 7:40:19 GMT -5
:)I have to say im very pleased with this bombshell, im not sure how any of this will play out, but to have a chance on a register is all ive ever asked for, i will go to "crapland" as one poster phrased it, although i told opm i would go to every location, i actually dont recall "crapland" being one of them, but i will go .
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Post by prescient on May 18, 2015 9:02:40 GMT -5
After thinking it over and digesting this information, I have come to the conclusion that this is actually terrible news for most applicants, and certainly myself (i.e. those cut off at the experience step or low scorers on the SJ online portion). Those selected for the WD/SI will, on the average, have lower scores than those currently on register. So while they get on, it really doesn't mean much in terms of getting a job. There will be exceptions of course, but the net effect of this will only be to delay reopening the application process, which I had already anticipated to be 2019-2025ish. I will have aged out of realistic consideration at that point, so this news is actually the death knell of my hopes of becoming an ALJ, which, of course, were slim to none anyway. If you are already on the register, I would think this news is pretty much no news. Good luck to you, and please don't suck at your job if you get it, it makes mine so much harder when you do. I think you are over emphasizing the amount of weight that is assigned to your score, that it attributable to your step 2 performance. Disclaimer: I don't have any personal knowledge of how your score is determined, but I would have to think that your WD/SI performance is weighted substantially higher than the online parts. IE. those newcomers who now advance to step 3 have an excellent chance of getting a score than surpasses many people currently on the register, if they nail the WD/SI. And like Pixie said, SSA could not care less about your score. It's only needed to make the cert(s) cutoff.
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Post by christina on May 18, 2015 9:16:21 GMT -5
superbonbon, my hope is that all of you will have some chance to advance too or at least get on the register. otherwise, yeah, it does suck and is illogical. i am hoping all of you will now get a score and end up on the register or at least compete with the new testers for scores that may get you on the register.
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Post by moopigsdad on May 18, 2015 9:23:04 GMT -5
I'm sure there are a lot of qualified people who were cut early in the process and will benefit from this, so good for them. For those of us waiting on our appeal of the WD or SI, this suuuuuucks. Unfortunately, nobody ever said life was going to be fair and equal for everyone. I do understand your disappointment superbonbon, as we have conversed in the past on the Board. However, the only way, besides determining appeals, for OPM to gain more qualified candidates is to change the cutoff for SJT scoring, which was the newest part added to the ALJ Examination to bring in litigation experience into the mix. These people moving on from the SJT will have to score high enough in the WD/SI in order to get on the Register. If not, they will be in your boat waiting an appeal of their WD/SI scoring. I think the reason why OPM is willing to adjust the cutoff scoring on the SJT is because it was the newest part of the examination and was supposedly put together with SSA's assistance. Therefore, it is the part of the exam OPM feels most comfortable adjusting the scoring on (e.g. instead of getting 85% or more of the SJT questions correct, they are willing to say if you got 80% or more of the SJT questions correct you can now move on to the WD/SI) to allow additional candidates to move forward. It was the equivalent of a mid-term exam in college, while the WD/SI was the equivalent of the final exam. Sometimes, you can do worse on the mid-term exam, but still move on in the class, but if you blow the final exam, you don't get a passing grade. Eventually, OPM will get to all appeals from Section One and Section Three of the Exam and any remainders from Section Two. It will likely be sometime prior to the end of this calendar year in my opinion. More candidates will be needed even after doing what OPM is doing with the SJT portion of the examination. Good luck to all.
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Post by ibnlurkin on May 18, 2015 9:33:09 GMT -5
I'm sure there are a lot of qualified people who were cut early in the process and will benefit from this, so good for them. For those of us waiting on our appeal of the WD or SI, this suuuuuucks. Unfortunately, nobody ever said life was going to be fair and equal for everyone. I do understand your disappointment superbonbon, as we have conversed in the past on the Board. However, the only way, besides determining appeals, for OPM to gain more qualified candidates is to change the cutoff for SJT scoring, which was the newest part added to the ALJ Examination to bring in litigation experience into the mix. These people moving on from the SJT will have to score high enough in the WD/SI in order to get on the Register. If not, they will be in your boat waiting an appeal of their WD/SI scoring. I think the reason why OPM is willing to adjust the cutoff scoring on the SJT is because it was the newest part of the examination and was supposedly put together with SSA's assistance. Therefore, it is the part of the exam OPM feels most comfortable adjusting the scoring on (e.g. instead of getting 85% or more of the SJT questions correct, they are willing to say if you got 80% or more of the SJT questions correct you can now move on to the WD/SI) to allow additional candidates to move forward. It was the equivalent of a mid-term exam in college, while the WD/SI was the equivalent of the final exam. Sometimes, you can do worse on the mid-term exam, but still move on in the class, but if you blow the final exam, you don't get a passing grade. Eventually, OPM will get to all appeals from Section One and Section Three of the Exam and any remainders from Section Two. It will likely be sometime prior to the end of this calendar year in my opinion. More candidates will be needed even after doing what OPM is doing with the SJT portion of the examination. Good luck to all. Still "sucks" for those in superbonbons shoes ..... time will tell how much it sucks for the rest of us
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Post by christina on May 18, 2015 9:56:54 GMT -5
i know of a sitting ALJ who was in a sort of similar status to those in superbonbon's shoes several years ago. to me, it looks like opm is trying to get more names out of those who applied in 2013 and if so, that could be good news for most of us still waiting, esp those of us not on the register. those of you knocked out after what i will call the DC testing component may at least end up with a score out of this and on the register. yes, i know tiger's post made no indication of this but assuming the goal is to get more names on the register without reopening the testing, it is logical to add the DC testers to the register. also, it will vastly reduce the amount of appeals out there and be less work for OPM on the appeals, something opm would certainly like.
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Post by gary on May 18, 2015 9:57:14 GMT -5
The change in cutoff score will not be just for the SJT. It will be for the combination of the SJT, WS, and EA.
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Post by gary on May 18, 2015 10:01:26 GMT -5
i know of a sitting ALJ who was in a sort of similar status to those in superbonbon's shoes several years ago. to me, it looks like opm is trying to get more names out of those who applied in 2013 and if so, that could be good news for most of us still waiting, esp those of us not on the register. those of you knocked out after what i will call the DC testing component may at least end up with a score out of this and on the register. yes, i know tiger's post made no indication of this but assuming the goal is to get more names on the register without reopening the testing, it is logical to add the DC testers to the register. also, it will vastly reduce the amount of appeals out there and be less work for OPM on the appeals, something opm would certainly like. This will not change the result for anyone who did not make the register because they did not have a high enough WD or SI score. And those who now get to test in DC will have to do well enough on the WD and SI to make the register.
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