Life goes back to normal for us non-offerees

[crazybroad]

When I did not receive an offer by 8pm Thursday, I was still alittle hopeful that more would come the next day. On my 40 minute drive to work at ODAR the next morning, I came to the realization that the offers had all gone out. I just knew it. Email is fast, why delay to the next day? I got angry at first. I was one of the appeals that came through in the last week of testing. Why grant my appeal only to have my hopes dashed by a rotten score. Then came the email that I was on the cert and going to get an interview. Holy crap, this was meant to be! Then the interview was so, . . so . . . benign I thought, I was a cinch to get in with my agency experience, efile experience, litigation experience, management experience. The hopes that were dashed 10/30 were revived on 11/30 and again on 1/25 (my interview) only for this. After I told those in the office who would ask daily, "Have you heard?" I seemed to have to uplift them by saying, "don't worry it just wasn't meant to be." Even my HOCALJ was surprised and befuddled. Then my sitter called and said she had to take her son for a chest x-ray, so I had to go get my son and put him down for his nap. Gladly!!!!! When I picked him up, I thought, these are the blessings in life, children, my husband, my friends. I can now get on with my life (until the next cert if I make it). I have the kids room to paint (I'm going to try and be creative). A faucet to replace in the kitchen. Artificial nails to take off (which I had put on just for the interview). If it weren't snowing I'd be restaining the deck. I just found a new dedication to my life that was before all this ALJ hiring business. I baked a cheesecake last night for dinner tonight. I'm having the family of my husband's first wrestler to make it to the NY State Wrestling Tournament over for dinner and UFC payperview. I found that there's more to me than just being an attorney and relying on that ALJ hire.

I only hope that the new ALJs realize that behind every file is a claimant waiting for a decision, any decision. Be fair - be discriminant - don't pay the case because it's easier or just because you have an RFC, it must also be supported by objective evidence. Be thorough - have your clerk run a new hires query just before the hearing so you can get answers on any work activity or unemployment payments. Don't waste agency money on MEs when there's a treating source assessment to be gotten. Remember past relevant work (PRW) must be performed before the alleged onset date to be PRW. Sorry, I'll stop now with the preaching and simply wish the new ALJs good luck and warn you to check your ego at the door - the office is too understaffed to be treated like crap and the claimant's deserve to be treated with dignity. Work as a team, be a team player, it makes for a much better office life. Get involved in office get togethers! May the job be everything you thought it would be.

[lostagain]

. . . and don't check cast aside your integrity just because management or an administrator is leaning on you (or you are charged with not being a team player). Do not underestimate APA protections or an agency's desire to achieve through other means that which the APA prevents it from doing directly. However. if you are a maverick or end up in battles with the powers that be, just make sure that you don't expose innocent staff to the risk of becoming collateral damage.

[Propmaster]

I agree with everything Crazybroad said. However, my life will not go back to normal (at least not right away).

I was satisfied with my job. I wasn't looking for a change. However, being an ALJ has been my desired career trajectory. I thought I was too inexperienced, etc., but deicded I had to try, who knows when the register would open again?

I have identified errors I made in every step of the process that might have affected my score, but the most uncorrectable is the fact that all I do is live, breathe, and sleep Social Security law. I'm not going to start trying cases just to get experience to be a judge. For the forseeable future, I'll still be doing what I'm doing.

Now, I said that wasn't bad - although very time consuming and stressful. I'm not married, I spend 80 hours a week in the office. The problem with having gotten close (compared to, say, not getting past the application stage) is the MONTHS we've had to hope, dream, etc. It's like going into a prison and saying, "taste this steak - isn't it good?" And the prisoner says, "Yes, yum." And then you say, "well, you can't have it."

The food still there is no worse than it was - but it sure seems unsatisfying in comparison.

Oh well. Life goes on.

[nyctourist]

I heartily agree with all these sentiments, but I will add that I am bitter! I initially drafted a post citing all the reasons that I am bitter, but suffice it to say, I am bitter! Honest, but bitter, resentful, and feeling like a fool. I can't deal with platitudes and pity, so I've taken a week off to rejuvenate myself. I will do things that I enjoy - like go to the theatre - movies - spring cleaning (don't really enjoy but desperately need to do) - make travel plans for spring break (another week off - 8 hour leave category is really a thing of beauty) - pretend to be a stay at home mom for a week (really think that's all I can handle of it), and enjoy drinking coffee with Matt Lauer for a week. Then I'll go back refreshed and do the job for which I was hired with integrity and fortitude. That's all I can do.

Thanks for listening - those in my place understand what I"m saying.

[jerseymom]

Life DOES go back to normal. After checking this board on Friday afternoon & learning that all offers were made, I drove home very disappointed. But then my neighbor called and asked if I could watch 2 of his kids, because his baby was sick. "Sure" I said. I ended up having 3 of his 4 sleep over that night because the baby had to go to the hospital for 8 hours. When the 3 year old threw up on me Saturday morning, I thought "How bad can this weekend get?" When my 8yr old threw up later that morning, I knew I was having one of those days. She made it really memorable by throwing up again in my bed at midnight Saturday.
I am thankful the stomach bug is gone.
I am thankful I have a wonderful washing machine.
I am thankful I have two healthy kids (most of the time).
I am thankful there will be more hires in '08 & '09.
To all who did not get an offer, hang in there.
It's not as bad as vomit!!!
Jerseymom
P.S. My neighbor's kids are fine & his wife returns tomorrow.

[texasatty]

For those of you who received offers, congratulations. I am sure you deserved it. I am not just trying to be gracious. From reading this blog and meeting some of you at the tests and interview, I am very impressed with the caliber of applicants for these positions. I don't feel like I lost out to somebody's cousin or friend, which, unfortunately, can happen, even in federal hiring.

I feel privileged I got an interview. I am, of course, disappointed that I didn't get an offer, but I feel I got an equal opportunity for the job. Everyone who applied had to suffer through the trying processes of OPM. I think SSA handled the daunting process of hiring 144 people all at once very professionally.

I am hopeful, but not optimistic, that I may get hired this summer. I think I really handicapped my chances by a very limited number of geographic choices. If I get another shot at it, I will pick a lot more places. Oh well. I still have a very good job and life.

For those of us who didn't get offers, make sure you keep this "rejection" in perspective. Remember what's truly important. I found out they couldn't talk to one of my references, and a good friend, because he was suddenly diagnosed with brain cancer, and is undergoing treatment. That put this application process in perspective.

[mama]

I have avoided this board for a few days because I have been trying to get my emotions in check and sorted out. I have decided that if if can't joint them, I'm going to beat them. And have taken the cause of my crippled, crazy and downtrodden clients up with renewed vigor.

I too am not willing to do anything but SS law either. I too feel a lot like propmaster in this regard. What is eating me most, truthfully, is how the hell did they come up with our scores? Is there any way to get a breakdown or a reasonable understanding so that next time, If it choose to torture myself more, I have a halfway decent chance?

[testtaker]

I'm hoping life goes back to normal this week. I had a miserable weekend. I went between feeling hopelessly disappointed and feeling that at least I can move on with my life. I am in desperate need of a vacation, which I have put off for way too long. I am happy for those who made the class of '08 and especially for Tootsie, who I am acquainted with and have great respect for.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Propmaster and mama. I also live, breathe, and sleep Social Security law. I LOVE IT. After being in SS disability practice for 17 years, I felt I was quite qualified for the ALJ job. Unfortunately, I was too limited in my geographic locations to have been a serious candidate. I will widen my choices as soon as OPM allows.

Like mama, the thing that really bugs me is how they came up with these scores. I usually like to learn something from my failures, but I can't say that anything about this has been a learning experience (except that I must widen my geographic availability). If the register re-opens, how will I know what to concentrate on - - our scores did not give us a clue as to how we did on each part (AR, WD, and SI). What if I re-do my AR and the AR was actually my strongest point? Well, you know what I'm driving at. The OPM process was ridiculous.

PM - you said you weren't going to start trying cases just to get experience to be a judge and that for the forseeable future, you'll still be doing what you're doing. My question to you is: Do you take any SS cases to federal court?

From this point on I will concentrate on getting my mojo back and revamping my practice. I will likely add another practice area that fits in with the disability practice. Revamping the practice will not be difficult. Revamping myself is another story. I hope the next NOSSCR conference at least gives me back that David vs. Goliath feeling. (Hey, PM & mama - do you guys go to the NOSSCR conferences - - anyone from this board that goes should get together in Miami). I think I will also concentrate more on my singing and performing. I might also get involved in the presidential campaign. Heck, the Hatch Act doesn't apply to us folk!

[Propmaster]

Mar 3, 2008 15:01:36 GMT -5 testtaker said:

...
I'm pretty much in agreement with Propmaster and mama. I also live, breathe, and sleep Social Security law. I LOVE IT. After being in SS disability practice for 17 years, I felt I was quite qualified for the ALJ job. Unfortunately, I was too limited in my geographic locations to have been a serious candidate. I will widen my choices as soon as OPM allows.
...
PM - you said you weren't going to start trying cases just to get experience to be a judge and that for the forseeable future, you'll still be doing what you're doing. My question to you is: Do you take any SS cases to federal court?
...

I take a lot of cases to Federal Court. I am pretty sure I am the largest filer in our district - I usually file a measurable percentage of the total filings each year. In one division, a few years ago, I filed 12% of all the civil cases (not just SSA) filed (there were only about 80 ). Since the EAJA fiasco started, I have absorbed two other practitioners' usual appeal burdens, as well.

I've also argued at the Circuit court (a couple of times successfully), I've successfully pursued mandamus actions against SSA and the state family services office, and participated in two unsuccessful actions to enforce ALJ rights to order development and to have subpoenas enforced.

I thought of telling someone at SSA that they'd be better with me as a judge than as a claimants' representative . I spent the last three months getting my cases cleared out so that I could make the transition if I got appointed. This leaves me with only a normal 40 hour work week worth of work, so plenty of time to pursue a few pesky injuctions/class actions I've had on hold for a while because if I left, no one else has the time to do them.

I had a goal to fix SSA from the inside. I guess I have to go back to trying to fix it from the outside.

[lawguardian]

Imagine two people hired on the same day as attorneys for SSA in different but neighboring offices. Both are, by all accounts, hard workers and are promoted to senior attorneys. Both have prior experience respresenting clients and 10 years with SSA. Both apply to be an ALJ and make the final cut for an interview. One is offered and accepts an ALJ job in the office where the other does not receive such an offer and will be writing decisions for the new ALJ. There is no objective information available to distinguish the two. Such is my life.

I have expressed the same sentiments you guys have shared to my spouse over the weekend. When this opportunity presented itself, I was not actively looking to leave my current job. I was satisfied believing that I would become an ALJ sometime in the future. Then this unique opportunity to obtain this goal presented itself at a time which seemed almost serendipitious. I had 10 months to think and dream about the position and only 24 hours to have those thoughts and dreams dashed by no offer.

Under the old process, if you got as far as a paid trip to DC for an interview, you were almost assured a position, or at least that is what I was told by ALJs in my office, who stopped to talk with me about the process. I kept thinking that surely the Agency would not put us all through such a rigorous, time-consuming process without something to show for it at the end of the day. Like testtaker, I would like to say that this has been a learning experience, but the more I think about the process, the more I am convinced that it, by its very design, is for creating chaos and confusion not clarity.

For months the members of this forum have attempted to work out by statistics and/or other analytical means each step of the process, i.e., the scores, the rule of 3, the weight given to the interviews, the writing demonstration, the background checks, and the geographical factor. Yet the process could never really be pinned down and, at times, managed to stump even the most steadfast and wisest (Pixie). Do we really think that it is possible to do what the Agency has said that it has done: hired 144 people from a group of over 400 considering all factors, including scores, geographical preferences, veteran's status, writing and thinking ability, background information, and interpersonal factors. I assert that this is an impossible task for human beings and as in the past, future lawsuits will be filed which show that random selections were made based upon arbitrary criteria. This new process is no better than the old, and the Agency would be much better off if they simply drew names from a hat, at least then, there would be no question that the process is a raffle.

I think what bugs most of us is that we are told that there is an almost mathematical method to this madness and once all the rules are applied, it will yield the proper quotient. When all the dust settles, we start to see problems with the calculations. What about the people with higher scores who chose all locations, and that had veteran's points that weren't selected? How is it that people with basically the same experience were given drastically different scores or left off the certificate entirely? How come we weren't given a breakdown of the overall scores so that we could make an educated guess about our chances of getting a position? And so on and so on and so on. Plus this is a process that is being applied to a bunch of lawyers. Does anyone see the irony in that?

Can you imagine preparing a case for trial for 10 months and after the trial, the Judge making rulings without explanation or following or distinguishing the case from precedent. We would all file an immediate appeal. However, the problem in this case, is there is no RECORD, only the conclusions of the Court.

Here's to the hours turning into weeks turning into months and putting this experience behind us.

[privateattorney]

Lawguardian, I agree with your sentiments and feel for you. Once when I was working for the state attorney general's office the same type of thing happened to me. A young man probably about 10 years younger than me was hired as an assistant AG right out of law school, passing me over for the position for political reasons--his father was buddies with the AG. I was working as a legal assistant at the time, having obtained the job out of law school. I had been working there for about 3 months when it happened. I was actually assigned to work for him! I made the best of it, and I was later hired as an attorney. Over the weekend, I felt emotions ranging from extreme disappointment to anger as well. I told my wife it would take a while for me to get over it, but at least I have my own practice to pour my energies and emotion into. I'm sorry about your situation. I hope you will find a way to see something positive in the midst of it. It will not help any of us to allow our feelings to get the better of us.

[nyctourist]

OK. I'm taming the beasts of bitterness and resentfulness. There is no point to living life with those emotions. Just like with any great disappointment, those reactions fade and you return to your old self. In my whole porfessional life, I have never been anyone's first choice. I went through three interveiws and rejections before I was hired as a US District Court law clerk. When I left there and moved to Memphis, I couldn't get hired for nothing. So 18 months of private practice (ahhh!!!!!!!!!!!) Then I applied for legal writing instructor at a law school. Someone else was hired, but a week later, she decided not to take the job and I was runner up. Honest to god - that's what I was told - like runner up to Miss America. Anyway - now this opportunity. I have never applied for a position for which I felt more qualified. I have read thousands of disability files, hundreds of hearing transcripts. I've researched complicated issues such as Medicare coverage when Medicare was our baby, income and resources issues invovlving trusts, and I have written memoranda of law on many topics. I've taught SS law for writer training on numerous occasions, and I am the go to girl in our office o the electronic files. I was the first to learn the system, and I have always been the agency's cheerleader on this initiative. I can write a fully favorable decision from scratch in less than an hour for the right case. I could have started moving cases on the day that I showed up for new appointment - i.e. on the records. I would have been ready to schedule immediately, and I would have been productive right out of the block. I am the alj candidate that could have helped meet Commissioner's Astrue's goals immediately. In other words, I am the Hillary Clinton of the alj candidates. Yet, here I am pouring out my heart to others who feel just as slighted.

My real problem is that I have no hope of future hiring. My OPM score sucks! I did appeal it, but I don't expect any relief. I just don't see how I can overcome that deficit. I don't forsee making the next limited cert, and who knows what will happen next year. So as for me, I'm going to enjoy the rest of my week off. Like I'm sitting here with my laptop, under a blanket, with a cup of coffee, the Today Show (no Matt Lauer this week, but David Gregory is OK), and my 12 1/2 year girl puppy sleeping by my side. Then I'll go back to researching issues for people making much more than me, and cleaning up messes other people have made. I'll go back to training aljs on the electronic files and FITS systems, and I'll go back to being the Senior Attorney that I am.

Thanks for letting me vent.

[testtaker]

I agree with PrivateAttorney that letting our feelings get the best of us won't help, however I must admit that I felt better yesterday than I do today. Yesterday there was much catching up to do at the office. I thought perhaps I was getting over the hump. Today - - well, today it seems to be hitting me pretty badly. Hmmm, I find it odd. I will try to keep myself distracted.

I am reading how people feel bitter because they were so qualified for the job. I think most of us here were/are extremely qualified for this job. Its just that there were indeed such a large amount of qualified candidates. OPM score did count for part of it, but otherwise, I can't find a heck of a lot of rhyme or reason. I know that two of the folks who got a position in the office I wanted to go to appear to be highly qualified. One is already the HOD of that office (he is extremely qualified) and the other is already a judge of some kind (wouldn't say what kind), which means he's already used to making decisions. I can't begrudge that kind of experience. I remember when I worked at a prestigious NYC law firm and the HR person asked me to cull the resumes for summer associates from my alma mater. Out of a huge stack of resumes, I was to choose which 8 would be lucky enough to be intereviewed for a coveted summer associate position. Each and every applicant was highly qualified. It was a nightmare to make the choice. I can imagine this process was similar. So, I don't have bitterness or resentment. Just deep, deep disappointment.

I have received some great comfort from some e-mails that several ALJs have sent me. I had quite a number of them as my references and they were also disappointed at my not getting the position. They acknowledged that my weak point was my geographic availability, but they all told me to keep my chin up and that my time would come. Several recounted the difficulties they had on the road to becoming an ALJ and one told me that it took him a number of years to get appointed. He first had to widen his location choices and then go to a place he didn't want to live. He paid his dues and got on a transfer list. So - - as I said before, there's always hope in the future. I just gotta get over the letdown feeling.

[crazybroad]

Here are my thoughts on how the selections worked: The certificate from OPM was done by the rule of three but instead of the top guy with all cities chosen being the top on every list, he was put in the top of the first list with two behind him and moved to the SSA cert, not to be considered again and so on down the scores for the approppriate cities. This is the only way the cert could have dug down so deep, that 450 were interviewed for 150 positions (150x3). When SSA got the names, they rearranged them in score order on one big list and chose that way. What proves my theory is the fact that no second offers are going out after someone declines because there is no second person on the list, they were not done by rule of 3 at SSA. Furthermore, if SSA had kept the names in the rule of 3 order that OPM gave them surely the last cities (positions) on the cert would have reached to three people with grades in the 50s and low 60s and one of them would have been chosen. However, we have only seen offers as low as 65 on this board. I had emailed Pat Rocheford, the woman in the cert notification came from, to ask if offers had commenced Thursday morning. She did not get back to me until Friday but had stated that offers went out the day before and selections were made before they got to my score. This is still consistent with my theory. Does anyone follow my reasoning?

[crazybroad]

i think that your theory presumes that three different people were considered for each location. That didnt happen. The reason SSA didnt get very far into the scores is that someone with a high score and wide geographic preference can be considered three times before being removed from consideration. If the rule of 3 was applied correctly(and I think it was), SSA was never going to be able to get to the bottom third of scores.[/quote]

So OPM applied the rule of 3 in a different way SSA did, then because over 400 did get interviews.

[judicature]

Upon completion of its interview and background check process, I believe SSA first ranks the candidates and then works with location preferences and vet prefs to get their top 150 offers; in turn they rank the rest of the certificate behind their top choices using the same method and thereby ultimately comply with the Rule of 3.

I suspect the only reason SSA didn't move down the list for a location with a decline is because they wanted to get the selected names to OPM asap so that they could be removed from the register as hired; then the next certificate could begin without cluttering it with names already hired on the certificate just completed.

[crazybroad]

So, bolely, you are saying OPM does not apply the rule of three when SSA asked for a certificate?

[judicature]

I may have dreamed this, but I thought someone called Falls Church and they had indicated that there would be no offers following declinations.

[chinook]

While I can not give you a cite to check, it is my understand that if a hiring authority interviews one person on the "most qualitied list" the hiring authority must interview all on that list. It need not interview any on the list. I presume that the cert is treated as a "most qualified list."

[nonamouse]

LWS,

The rule of 3 applies to ALJ hiring as has been discussed elsewhere on this board. You can review it in detail by doing a search. Your question is a bit convoluted, but it appears that this is the process that has you confused. The regs don't allow for what you stated regarding who should be interviewed.

Your score did not doom you or guarantee you anything. It just got you an interview with whichever agency pulled your name for their certificate. ODAR chose who it wanted based on the total package including the impression that you made at that interview with actual ODAR ALJs who took copious notes.

I'm not freaked out because I know that my cities were filled by transfers. However, my interview was a waste of money for them unless they use it for the next ODAR cert and spare me another flight. For me, it was a valuable learning experience.

I hate to read the apparent distress in your post. You seem to be really invested in something that has only slightly better odds than winning the lottery. It can take years to get selected off a register depending on score, availability, who else listed the same cities, etc. Some of us will never be selected and need to enjoy our life without being an ALJ.