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Post by Pixie on Jul 18, 2018 20:55:31 GMT -5
Oh nooo ... the exchange above between Pixie and @alj10028 just took me back 20 years to a time when I had to serve as mediator between my parents. I now need some situational bourbon and I do not even drink bourbon. It is all resolved. No need for mediators. We just have some history. All is good. Pixie |
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Post by Burt Macklin on Jul 19, 2018 6:31:10 GMT -5
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Post by christina on Jul 19, 2018 6:59:13 GMT -5
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Post by stevil on Jul 19, 2018 8:02:20 GMT -5
Not sure you can totally blame Trump for the EO and its effects - you would have to admit he really considered what he signed! TPTB at SSA have been complaining loudly for years (and they have the angriest dog in this fight) that they want to select their own inside folk and not have to worry about those pesky qualifications OPM was concerned about. After all, it's quicker and easier to make numbers when you have agency bots processing them rather than actual ALJs doing the thinking and deciding. If the quality and the independence of the ALJ corps takes a dive - it isn't just the EO to blame, but its execution by the agency. SSA got what it wanted - let's see what they do with it and to the American public. |
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Post by christina on Jul 19, 2018 8:24:44 GMT -5
I can’t access articles. Only headlines. Headline sounded bad
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Post by aljwishhope on Jul 19, 2018 9:03:06 GMT -5
Not sure you can totally blame Trump for the EO and its effects - you would have to admit he really considered what he signed! TPTB at SSA have been complaining loudly for years (and they have the angriest dog in this fight) that they want to select their own inside folk and not have to worry about those pesky qualifications OPM was concerned about. After all, it's quicker and easier to make numbers when you have agency bots processing them rather than actual ALJs doing the thinking and deciding. If the quality and the independence of the ALJ corps takes a dive - it isn't just the EO to blame, but its execution by the agency. SSA got what it wanted - let's see what they do with it and to the American public. with all due respect Stevil you can be an insider and become an actual ALJdoing thinking and deciding. I have worked all over. I plan to return to SSA to gain additional SSA expertise. At some point then I would become an insider. At what point after more than 20 years practicing law would I lose the ability to be an actual ALJ doing thinking and deciding. Please note also as an excepted service attorney writing decisions I have followed the law. I have refused (this has occurred on rare occasions) when management has suggested to do otherwise. Whether insider outsider attorney or alj I remain an independent thinker capable of making legal decisions. Let’s not pit insider v outsider. Neither is just one thing. Let’s be judged by individual qualifications. And let those best qualified get the job. That is what is best for the public. |
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Post by stevil on Jul 19, 2018 9:35:57 GMT -5
Not sure you can totally blame Trump for the EO and its effects - you would have to admit he really considered what he signed! TPTB at SSA have been complaining loudly for years (and they have the angriest dog in this fight) that they want to select their own inside folk and not have to worry about those pesky qualifications OPM was concerned about. After all, it's quicker and easier to make numbers when you have agency bots processing them rather than actual ALJs doing the thinking and deciding. If the quality and the independence of the ALJ corps takes a dive - it isn't just the EO to blame, but its execution by the agency. SSA got what it wanted - let's see what they do with it and to the American public. with all due respect Stevil you can be an insider and become an actual ALJdoing thinking and deciding. I have worked all over. I plan to return to SSA to gain additional SSA expertise. At some point then I would become an insider. At what point after more than 20 years practicing law would I lose the ability to be an actual ALJ doing thinking and deciding. Please note also as an excepted service attorney writing decisions I have followed the law. I have refused (this has occurred on rare occasions) when management has suggested to do otherwise. Whether insider outsider attorney or alj I remain an independent thinker capable of making legal decisions. Let’s not pit insider v outsider. Neither is just one thing. Let’s be judged by individual qualifications. And let those best qualified get the job. That is what is best for the public. You don't have to give me any respect over an opinion - I just hope you prove me wrong by getting selected to be an SSA ALJ. It all depends on what criteria SSA will deem "necessary" now. Experience? Judgment? Smarts? I hope for your sake they don't include the exclusion of folk who have refused to do an agency's bidding before or who have challenged an agency's unjust policy in any meaningful way. I would discus an incident that happened at my interview with SSA that informs this opinion, but I do not want to run afoul of any rules. (I'm talking about blog rules here - not SSA's). |
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Post by Pixie on Jul 19, 2018 10:28:03 GMT -5
Not sure you can totally blame Trump for the EO and its effects - you would have to admit he really considered what he signed! TPTB at SSA have been complaining loudly for years (and they have the angriest dog in this fight) that they want to select their own inside folk and not have to worry about those pesky qualifications OPM was concerned about. After all, it's quicker and easier to make numbers when you have agency bots processing them rather than actual ALJs doing the thinking and deciding. If the quality and the independence of the ALJ corps takes a dive - it isn't just the EO to blame, but its execution by the agency. SSA got what it wanted - let's see what they do with it and to the American public. This is more harshly worded than what I would like to see and what I would expect of stevil. Thanks to christina and aljwishhope for exercising restraint in their replies. I hope the rest of you will also exercise restraint if you choose to reply. Pixie |
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Post by rockey on Jul 19, 2018 10:46:15 GMT -5
Not sure you can totally blame Trump for the EO and its effects - you would have to admit he really considered what he signed! TPTB at SSA have been complaining loudly for years (and they have the angriest dog in this fight) that they want to select their own inside folk and not have to worry about those pesky qualifications OPM was concerned about. After all, it's quicker and easier to make numbers when you have agency bots processing them rather than actual ALJs doing the thinking and deciding. If the quality and the independence of the ALJ corps takes a dive - it isn't just the EO to blame, but its execution by the agency. SSA got what it wanted - let's see what they do with it and to the American public. On the other hand, a fair argument can be made that a president is 100% responsible for the executive orders he issues. Moreover, there is zero evidence that Trump took any of what TPTB at SSA wanted into consideration when he issued the EO. Trump issued the EO so his political appointees can appoint like-minded individuals as ALJs in agencies where powerful interests oppose government agency action. End of story. |
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Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 11:01:45 GMT -5
One thing’s for sure - the competitive ALJs aren’t going to have much respect for the ES ALJs.
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Post by arkstfan on Jul 19, 2018 11:02:39 GMT -5
Not sure you can totally blame Trump for the EO and its effects - you would have to admit he really considered what he signed! TPTB at SSA have been complaining loudly for years (and they have the angriest dog in this fight) that they want to select their own inside folk and not have to worry about those pesky qualifications OPM was concerned about. After all, it's quicker and easier to make numbers when you have agency bots processing them rather than actual ALJs doing the thinking and deciding. If the quality and the independence of the ALJ corps takes a dive - it isn't just the EO to blame, but its execution by the agency. SSA got what it wanted - let's see what they do with it and to the American public. As I've said before, no one has ever suggested I pay too many or pay too few. They have informed me that something should be signed sooner or shipped to a writer sooner. The OPM process, honestly if I were responsible for hiring, I'd hate it. For efficiency sake, you have to hire in multiples of 30-40 for training. You get an unexpected burst of retirements, transfers or hardships and you can end up with an 8 judge office with 3 or 4 judges and having to swap workload around the country while complying with the 75 day notice requirements. You convinced Congress to appropriate enough to train X judges, but now need to train X+Y and may have to hold some until the next fiscal year. Then once new judge is blessed, you get two weeks of the judge in the new office not producing anything and four weeks of training and because of the notice provisions, might not get the new judge into a hearing room for another two weeks after training and even then carrying a partial load. I've seen a slot be vacant for seven months which means that slot may not have held a hearing in 9 months. All the while you are getting bad press for backlog and can't get robes on the ground to address the issue. |
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Post by Pixie on Jul 19, 2018 11:06:38 GMT -5
One thing’s for sure - the competitive ALJs aren’t going to have much respect for the ES ALJs. I think it will all level out after the ES judge has been on the job for awhile. Currently there is no lack of respect for a judge who came onboard as an insider. I think the same situation will be present after the change, if the Agency can get any hiring done. Pixie |
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Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 11:06:56 GMT -5
I can’t access articles. Only headlines. Headline sounded bad Damnable paywall. It’s an op ed by ALJ Zahm. What I found interesting is that she appears to concede that ALJs are inferior officers under Lucia, or at least that’s the implication by stating the EO was not necessary because OHO ALJs just needed to be re/properly appointed. |
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Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 11:08:56 GMT -5
One thing’s for sure - the competitive ALJs aren’t going to have much respect for the ES ALJs. I think it will all level out after the ES judge has been on the job for awhile. Pixie Let’s hope so. OTOH, how easy would the job be if every case came with instructions from management on whether to pay it or not? That was a joke BTW |
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Post by SPN Lifer on Jul 19, 2018 11:09:14 GMT -5
One thing’s for sure - the competitive ALJs aren’t going to have much respect for the ES ALJs. I would expect most ALJs have more professionalism than that. |
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Post by arkstfan on Jul 19, 2018 11:25:08 GMT -5
One thing’s for sure - the competitive ALJs aren’t going to have much respect for the ES ALJs. Odds are many of those ES ALJ's are going to be Smith who you worked with and served as a reference for. Now if it is Senator Doe's constituent services director who has never appeared before a tribunal, there will be a respect gap. I also suspect it will vary greatly by office. I have been in a starter office where there is near constant churn of new hires coming in and getting out as fast as the their reassignment is approved. If the agency hired some locals who had the respect of the office I think there would be a general opinion the process improved by hiring people they knew and trusted who wanted to be there. I've been in an office where new hires are a rarity. There might be more skepticism when getting there meant going through the process and "paying your dues" in a starter office. |
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Post by bayou on Jul 19, 2018 11:27:07 GMT -5
Not sure you can totally blame Trump for the EO and its effects - you would have to admit he really considered what he signed! TPTB at SSA have been complaining loudly for years (and they have the angriest dog in this fight) that they want to select their own inside folk and not have to worry about those pesky qualifications OPM was concerned about. After all, it's quicker and easier to make numbers when you have agency bots processing them rather than actual ALJs doing the thinking and deciding. If the quality and the independence of the ALJ corps takes a dive - it isn't just the EO to blame, but its execution by the agency. SSA got what it wanted - let's see what they do with it and to the American public. This is more harshly worded than what I would like to see and what I would expect of stevil. Thanks to christina and aljwishhope for exercising restraint in their replies. I hope the rest of you will also exercise restraint if you choose to reply. Pixie I didn't think it was harshly worded nor did I read it as a slam on insiders. Rather, I read it as a comment that SSA has gotten what they want, the power to hire who they want, and SSA now bears the responsibility for the outcome. If their intent of wanting that power was to simply hire people they know to be sheep that will process actions without exercising independent thought and discretion, then the citizens of this country are the ones that suffer. I don't perceive him to say, nor am I trying to say, that insiders are sheep or incapable of independent thought. Quite frankly, I'm not even saying that is SSA's intent because I don't know. I would broadly lump applicants into 3 categories. First is the group that are just PITA and don't work hard, don't want to follow basic rules that aren't related to decisional power, like time and attendance etc.. and and so forth. Second, are those that understand there are rules to follow and churn out compliant decisions but are careful to guard the line against their independent decisional authority. Third would be the group that just fills out the forms without any thought to legal sufficiency and just meekly follows the rules told to them by the agency. It seems to me that under the now defunct process, SSA spent most of their effort in avoiding those in category one. With the restraints removed, will they now seek those in category two or three? Insiders and outsiders can fall into any of these three categories. Insiders are preferred because SSA has more info on them and can better assess which category they fall into. If they use their new power to select insiders because they are in category 3, then it is a big problem and is also a problem for those insiders who would be good ALJs. Again, I have no knowledge of SSA motives and am not trying to infer any to TPTB but I agree that they are responsible for the use of that power. |
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Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 11:30:56 GMT -5
I would expect most ALJs have more professionalism than that. I agree. New ALJs will be able to explain to their colleagues whether they were previously on the register, their backgrounds, etc. Existing ALJs can assess whether someone is qualified versus some kind of crony hire on a case-by-case basis, just like in any office. I wasn’t thinking of the cronyism or qualified angles. I think whatever process OHO uses will result in ALJs that are as qualified as current ALJs - that is I don’t think they’re going to hire law school grads, or someone who has a law license but hasn’t practiced. Newer ALJs might have less litigation experience overall, but probably more (arguably) relevant administrative/OHO experience. What I’m referencing is the fact that one type of ALJs will be viewed as truly independent while ES judges will be viewed as agency stooges. As Pixie said, that perception will change over time (unless ES ALJs actually do act like stooges), but right now that appears to be a popular (and not totally unjustified) view. |
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Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 11:53:59 GMT -5
I wasn’t thinking of the cronyism or qualified angles. I think whatever process OHO uses will result in ALJs that are as qualified as current ALJs - that is I don’t think they’re going to hire law school grads, or someone who has a law license but hasn’t practiced. Newer ALJs might have less litigation experience overall, but probably more (arguably) relevant administrative/OHO experience. What I’m referencing is the fact that one type of ALJs will be viewed as truly independent while ES judges will be viewed as agency stooges. As Pixie said, that perception will change over time (unless ES ALJs actually do act like stooges), but right now that appears to be a popular (and not totally unjustified) view. I don't think there will be that perception. As others have noted, the EO and OPM guidance seem to claim that ES ALJs will have the same removal protections. If so, there's no basis to think ES ALJs will be any less independent. But that's a huge "if." There is all kinds of litigation coming on these issues.[/quote Lots to shake out between now and then that’s for sure. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. |
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Post by SPN Lifer on Jul 19, 2018 13:44:50 GMT -5
One thing’s for sure - the competitive ALJs aren’t going to have much respect for the ES ALJs. I would expect most ALJs have more professionalism than that. What I’m referencing is the fact that one type of ALJs will be viewed as truly independent while ES judges will be viewed as agency stooges. As Pixie said, that perception will change over time (unless ES ALJs actually do act like stooges), but right now that appears to be a popular (and not totally unjustified) view. It may (or may not) be a popular view on this forum, but keep in mind that only a tiny minority of us will ever become ALJs, as a matter of simple mathematics. I highly doubt that ALJs, who have been selected based in part on their judicial temperament, will look askance at their Excepted Service colleagues unless given a specific and individualized basis to do so. Most certainly, they will not reject their new colleagues as a group. Do CSRS employees look down on FERS folk because they got a cheaper retirement system? |
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