|
|
Post by gazoo on Jul 19, 2018 14:23:19 GMT -5
I would expect most ALJs have more professionalism than that. I agree. New ALJs will be able to explain to their colleagues whether they were previously on the register, their backgrounds, etc. Existing ALJs can assess whether someone is qualified versus some kind of crony hire on a case-by-case basis, just like in any office.
I'm not an OHO insider, but if I were, I certainly wouldn't think I had to defend my hiring to my peers.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 14:28:39 GMT -5
One thingās for sure - the competitive ALJs arenāt going to have much respect for the ES ALJs. I would expect most ALJs have more professionalism than that. What Iām referencing is the fact that one type of ALJs will be viewed as truly independent while ES judges will be viewed as agency stooges. As Pixie said, that perception will change over time (unless ES ALJs actually do act like stooges), but right now that appears to be a popular (and not totally unjustified) view. It may (or may not) be a popular view on this forum, but keep in mind that only a tiny minority of us will ever become ALJs, as a matter of simple mathematics. I highly doubt that ALJs, who have been selected based in part on their judicial temperament, will look askance at their Excepted Service colleagues unless given a specific and individualized basis to do so. Most certainly, they will not reject their new colleagues as a group. Do CSRS employees look down on FERS folk because they got a cheaper retirement system? Thatās a rather strained comparison (FERS v CSRS), which really has nothing to do with the way in which the job is done. If new ALJs were going to be paid less or more, the comparison would be more on point. Here the concern is that ES ALJs will not be independent enough and therefore not ārealā ALJs. And frankly, is that not a fair point? What would all this hand wringing about the EO/Lucia be for if not for the perception that ES employees will be beholden to their agency masters? I mean thatās the whole point of the APA and the concern about the impact of Lucia and the EO (see ALJ Zahmās comments today in the WP). I could regale you with many tales of the vaunted temperament of some ALJs I have known, but suffice to say robe-itis is real. OTOH I personally know and am friends with many ALJs who donāt care a whit about the EO and seem to be in favor of a new testing process despite having navigated the OPM mine field themselves. I donāt think there will be personal animus (other than from those apparently personality disorderd individuals who already are a PITA anyway), and hopefully the concerns that ES ALJs are stooges will not materialize. The PD is the same after all. But in the short term I would expect some us v them mindset to materialize. If you know anyone in OHO ask around, I think youāll see some of this materializing already. Thenagain, Iāve been wrong before and will be again, so weāll see. |
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 14:30:29 GMT -5
I agree.Ā New ALJs will be able to explain to their colleagues whether they were previously on the register, their backgrounds, etc.Ā Existing ALJs can assess whether someone is qualified versus some kind of crony hire on a case-by-case basis, just like in any office. I'm not an OHO insider, but if I were, I certainly wouldn't think I had to defend my hiring to my peers.
Absolutely agree. Proof is in the pudding, and this aināt a popularity contest. Respect is received when it is given. Iām not overly concerned with those who think the opposite is true. |
|
|
|
Post by redryder on Jul 19, 2018 14:40:50 GMT -5
I came in as an "insider" and worse, (dare I admit it?) a member of management. Yes, an enforcer of the company rules and policies. Yet, I doubt anyone who knows me would ever say I was an agency stooge. I do not think applying the policy and regulations makes one a stooge. These are the rules by which the claims must be adjudicated. There is no room in this arena for the free-thinking who wants to re-interpret what the rules/policy should be. And I can assure you that when an ALJ goes off into his/her own interpretation of what policy should be, that decision is probably going to be remanded by SSA. Example? How about the claimant who had been receiving SSI and other benefits. Through a COLA, claimant received too much in other income to draw even $1 in SSI. Claimant wanted Medicaid to continue and ALJ thought this was 'equitable.' Issued the decision ordering claimant's Medicaid benefits continue. Processing center called ALJ's hand and had decision reviewed. It came back.
|
|
|
|
Post by SPN Lifer on Jul 19, 2018 15:17:23 GMT -5
One thingās for sure - the competitive ALJs arenāt going to have much respect for the ES ALJs. I would expect most ALJs have more professionalism than that. What Iām referencing is the fact that one type of ALJs will be viewed as truly independent while ES judges will be viewed as agency stooges. As Pixie said, that perception will change over time (unless ES ALJs actually do act like stooges), but right now that appears to be a popular (and not totally unjustified) view. It may (or may not) be a popular view on this forum, but keep in mind that only a tiny minority of us will ever become ALJs, as a matter of simple mathematics. I highly doubt that ALJs, who have been selected based in part on their judicial temperament, will look askance at their Excepted Service colleagues unless given a specific and individualized basis to do so. Most certainly, they will not reject their new colleagues as a group. Here the concern is that ES ALJs will not be independent enough and therefore not ārealā ALJs. And frankly, is that not a fair point? What would all this hand wringing about the EO/Lucia be for if not for the perception that ES employees will be beholden to their agency masters? I mean thatās the whole point of the APA and the concern about the impact of Lucia and the EO (see ALJ Zahmās comments today in the WP). * * * * [H]opefully the concerns that ES ALJs are stooges will not materialize. The PD is the same after all. But in the short term I would expect some us v them mindset to materialize. If you know anyone in OHO ask around, I think youāll see some of this materializing already. Then again, Iāve been wrong before and will be again, so weāll see. The degree of certitude expressed in your original statement (boldface emphasis added) is clearly wrong. By no means is it āsureā that competitive ALJs will have little respect for their new excepted service ALJ colleagues. |
|
|
|
Post by lurkerbelow on Jul 19, 2018 15:36:03 GMT -5
I have not encountered an ALJ who has ever expressed distaste for another ALJ due to hiring circumstances. And in any case, they arenāt the ones paying for your work.
They are far, far too busy.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 16:03:18 GMT -5
I have not encountered an ALJ who has ever expressed distaste for another ALJ due to hiring circumstances. And in any case, they arenāt the ones paying for your work. They are far, far too busy. Iāve worked in some high drama offices where the workload did not preclude ALJs from bickering in front of staff, or coming into my office to vent about other ALJs (awkward!) As to the fact that they havenāt expressed distaste due to hiring circumstances, that sort of misses the point that the EO has now formally made two classes of ALJs, one of which is being viewed as being beholden to management. But yes they arenāt signing the checks, so really - who cares. |
|
|
|
Post by anotherfed on Jul 19, 2018 16:03:39 GMT -5
Do CSRS employees look down on FERS folk because they got a cheaper retirement system? Not exactly. They just shake their heads and say under their breaths,"poor dears." |
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 16:07:42 GMT -5
One thingās for sure - the competitive ALJs arenāt going to have much respect for the ES ALJs. I would expect most ALJs have more professionalism than that. What Iām referencing is the fact that one type of ALJs will be viewed as truly independent while ES judges will be viewed as agency stooges. As Pixie said, that perception will change over time (unless ES ALJs actually do act like stooges), but right now that appears to be a popular (and not totally unjustified) view. It may (or may not) be a popular view on this forum, but keep in mind that only a tiny minority of us will ever become ALJs, as a matter of simple mathematics. I highly doubt that ALJs, who have been selected based in part on their judicial temperament, will look askance at their Excepted Service colleagues unless given a specific and individualized basis to do so. Most certainly, they will not reject their new colleagues as a group. Here the concern is that ES ALJs will not be independent enough and therefore not ārealā ALJs. And frankly, is that not a fair point? What would all this hand wringing about the EO/Lucia be for if not for the perception that ES employees will be beholden to their agency masters? I mean thatās the whole point of the APA and the concern about the impact of Lucia and the EO (see ALJ Zahmās comments today in the WP). * * * * [H]opefully the concerns that ES ALJs are stooges will not materialize. The PD is the same after all. But in the short term I would expect some us v them mindset to materialize. If you know anyone in OHO ask around, I think youāll see some of this materializing already. Then again, Iāve been wrong before and will be again, so weāll see. The degree of certitude expressed in your original statement (boldface emphasis added) is clearly wrong. By no means is it āsureā that competitive ALJs will have little respect for their new excepted service ALJ colleagues. Iāll concede that point. The statement was too broad and certain. I donāt think the point is wholly without merit, but you are correct that the phrasing was poor. Anyway, itās really irrelevant, so Iāll put it to bed. |
|
|
|
Post by anotherfed on Jul 19, 2018 16:08:20 GMT -5
I have not encountered an ALJ who has ever expressed distaste for another ALJ due to hiring circumstances. And in any case, they arenāt the ones paying for your work. They are far, far too busy. Iāve worked in some high drama offices where the workload did not preclude ALJs from bickering in front of staff, or coming into my office to vent about other ALJs (awkward!) As to the fact that they havenāt expressed distaste due to hiring circumstances, that sort of misses the point that the EO has now formally made two classes of ALJs, one of which is being viewed as being beholden to management. But yes they arenāt signing the checks, so really - who cares. I don't think judge-on-judge hate is the issue. The elephant is, if I am representing a client before an SSA ALJ, I want to make darn sure that said ALJ is competitive and not excepted, since I am hoping for impartiality and independence. |
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 16:10:47 GMT -5
Iāve worked in some high drama offices where the workload did not preclude ALJs from bickering in front of staff, or coming into my office to vent about other ALJs (awkward!) As to the fact that they havenāt expressed distaste due to hiring circumstances, that sort of misses the point that the EO has now formally made two classes of ALJs, one of which is being viewed as being beholden to management. But yes they arenāt signing the checks, so really - who cares. I don't think judge-on-judge hate is the issue.Ā The elephant is, if I am representing a client before an SSA ALJ, I want to make darn sure that said ALJ is competitive and not excepted, since I am hoping for impartiality and independence.Ā Ā A much more salient point, I agree. It will be interesting to see how that aspect plays out. OTOH, as a former claimants rep, Iād just take the one with the higher pay rate. |
|
|
|
Post by aljwishhope on Jul 19, 2018 16:15:11 GMT -5
Do CSRS employees look down on FERS folk because they got a cheaper retirement system? Not exactly.Ā They just shake their heads and say under their breaths,"poor dears." They have a little more pep in their step as they drop off those retirement papers! Otherwise they are indistinguishable. (in my former office many folks started out of high school, paralegals and legal instrument folks, so they will be in their 40s with 30 years and CSRS). Just lucky. I am sure that in 10 years if not sooner new feds will look back at my benefits package and wish it was still so good. |
|
|
|
Post by Prrple on Jul 19, 2018 16:15:35 GMT -5
I don't think judge-on-judge hate is the issue. The elephant is, if I am representing a client before an SSA ALJ, I want to make darn sure that said ALJ is competitive and not excepted, since I am hoping for impartiality and independence. Judge-on-Judge hate - worst reality show EVER! It would be super boring... Unless!
Picture this.....ALJ Duels where the winner is determined as follows:
ALJs in robes, on the set of Wipeout, completing those awesome obstacles. Whoever makes it through is the WINNER and the other is just a hater
|
|
|
|
Post by anotherfed on Jul 19, 2018 16:15:41 GMT -5
I don't think judge-on-judge hate is the issue. The elephant is, if I am representing a client before an SSA ALJ, I want to make darn sure that said ALJ is competitive and not excepted, since I am hoping for impartiality and independence. A much more salient point, I agree. It will be interesting to see how that aspect plays out. OTOH, as a former claimants rep, Iād just take the one with the higher pay rate. But wouldn't that be a nice, quick'n'dirty, no brainer appeal to draft? |
|
|
|
Post by redryder on Jul 19, 2018 16:19:52 GMT -5
In response to Anotherfed: I was originally brought into SSA under excepted service and then received the ALJ appointment under competitive appointment. So was every other "insider" who ever got an appointment. It seems a little reckless to assume that excepted service equates with a person who cannot be impartial and independent. To the contrary, the fact that so many of us have been successful suggests just the opposite.
Regardless of the selection process, SSA and every other agency that employs ALJs has a vested interest in getting the best qualified for the position. The integrity of the adjudication process depends upon it.
|
|
|
|
Post by firehouse9 on Jul 19, 2018 16:21:19 GMT -5
Iām sorry if some think this has already been explained, buut Iām confused.
1. Does this mean that the register is meaningless or that it will be continue to be used with agencies having more freedom to use it?
2. If the old system is entirely kaput, does anyone know how SSA willl hire tge judges they need?
|
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 16:21:39 GMT -5
I don't think judge-on-judge hate is the issue.Ā The elephant is, if I am representing a client before an SSA ALJ, I want to make darn sure that said ALJ is competitive and not excepted, since I am hoping for impartiality and independence.Ā Ā Judge-on-Judge hate - worst reality show EVER! It would be super boring... Unless! Picture this.....ALJ Duels where the winner is determined as follows: ALJs in robes, on the set of Wipeout, completing those awesome obstacles.Ā Whoever makes it through is the WINNER and the other is just a hater
Man those obstacles are going to be tough with robes on. Iām more of an American ninja warrior guy myself. |
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 16:23:32 GMT -5
Iām sorry if some think this has already been explained, buut Iām confused. 1. Does this mean that the register is meaningless or that it will be continue to be used with agencies having more freedom to use it? 2. If the old system is entirely kaput, does anyone know how SSA willl hire tge judges they need? Youāre tardy to the party dude. 1. OPM guidance says the register is dead, but the OPM website has not been changed to reflect this and no one has gotten notice that they are off the register (OPM guidance says this will be forthcoming) 2. Speculation is rampant, but many signs point to agency specific hiring a la how immigration hires now. Hopefulodarattorney has a some good posts upthread with insight into how this may work |
|
|
|
Post by jimmyjiggles on Jul 19, 2018 16:28:46 GMT -5
A much more salient point, I agree. It will be interesting to see how that aspect plays out. OTOH, as a former claimants rep, Iād just take the one with the higher pay rate. But wouldn't that be a nice, quick'n'dirty, no brainer appeal to draft? Oh Iām sure most firms would have a pro forma appeal brief. However it sure seems like something youād have to object to beforehand to preserve on appeal. |
|
|
|
Post by Prrple on Jul 19, 2018 16:30:41 GMT -5
Judge-on-Judge hate - worst reality show EVER! It would be super boring... Unless! Picture this.....ALJ Duels where the winner is determined as follows: ALJs in robes, on the set of Wipeout, completing those awesome obstacles. Whoever makes it through is the WINNER and the other is just a hater
Man those obstacles are going to be tough with robes on. Iām more of an American ninja warrior guy myself. Yes, well, add the robes on American Ninja Warrior, too - now that would be a show worth watching! ALJs scale the Salmon Ladder.
But I'm assuming that most ALJs don't have the upper body strength for ANW.
But Wipeout was good for any kind of body, even those without upper body strength, as long as that body was willing to throw it all in |
|
