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Post by recoveringalj on Aug 2, 2021 8:57:52 GMT -5
Good to know (now), and I appreciate this post. Respectable points. Irrespective, individuals should not be mandated to take the vaccine or fear losing their jobs. My body my choice, right? I mean, under Roe v. Wade we all have the right of privacy, don't we? Why do I get the impression that you aren’t a fan of that decision? In any event, you also have a right to work for a private employer, many of whom are also requiring vaccination by the way. Public employees serve the public, and they can’t do that if they are out sick (or worse) due to COVID. God forbid if a public employee actually infects a veteran at VA hospital or clinic. |
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Post by lurkerbelow on Aug 2, 2021 10:27:33 GMT -5
I have a right to carry a handgun under state law. I lose that right when I enter a federal building by virtue of (a) building codes, and (b) my employment with the US government. Vaccine arguments should probably be more along these lines. Somebody needs to identify what type of right requiring vaccination is, what legal standard is applied, and let us all go on with our lives instead of prognosticate on the relative power of our rights versus that of the federal government. We all have other things to do. Also, as my wife pointed out: You cannot reject Roe v. Wade and accept vaccination mandates. You cannot reject vaccination mandates yet accept Roe v. Wade.  |
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Post by neufenland on Aug 2, 2021 14:01:47 GMT -5
I have a right to carry a handgun under state law. I lose that right when I enter a federal building by virtue of (a) building codes, and (b) my employment with the US government. Vaccine arguments should probably be more along these lines. Somebody needs to identify what type of right requiring vaccination is, what legal standard is applied, and let us all go on with our lives instead of prognosticate on the relative power of our rights versus that of the federal government. We all have other things to do. Also, as my wife pointed out: You cannot reject Roe v. Wade and accept vaccination mandates. You cannot reject vaccination mandates yet accept Roe v. Wade.I mean, abortion isn't a highly transmissible aerosol virus responsible for the worst public health emergency in a century, though... |
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Post by mercury on Aug 2, 2021 14:26:54 GMT -5
I have a right to carry a handgun under state law. I lose that right when I enter a federal building by virtue of (a) building codes, and (b) my employment with the US government. Vaccine arguments should probably be more along these lines. Somebody needs to identify what type of right requiring vaccination is, what legal standard is applied, and let us all go on with our lives instead of prognosticate on the relative power of our rights versus that of the federal government. We all have other things to do. Also, as my wife pointed out: You cannot reject Roe v. Wade and accept vaccination mandates. You cannot reject vaccination mandates yet accept Roe v. Wade.I mean, abortion isn't a highly transmissible aerosol virus responsible for the worst public health emergency in a century, though... Also, as someone else may have pointed out, Roe v Wade is not necessarily inconsistent with Jacobson v Massachusetts |
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Post by lurkerbelow on Aug 2, 2021 15:26:00 GMT -5
Whether or not your arguments are correct, I have it on excellent authority that my wife is always right about everything.
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Post by johnthornton on Aug 2, 2021 15:31:31 GMT -5
Oh, please, let's not get into a discussion about abortion.
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Post by ba on Aug 2, 2021 20:21:59 GMT -5
A little black letter law Jacobson v Massachusetts 197 US 11 (1905) well established that the liberty secured by the Constitution does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State (in support of the states compelling interest in enforcing vaccination in light of a highly communicable disease) Just saying Easterbrook just applied Jacobson to IU’s vaccine mandate for the 7th circuit today. It took him four whole pages to affirm it. media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2021/D08-02/C:21-2326:J:Easterbrook:aut:T:op:N:2741753:S:0 |
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Post by lurkerbelow on Aug 2, 2021 20:57:11 GMT -5
I wonder how much fanmail J. Easterbrook gets from the legal community for his writing. That opinion is an excellent example of his classic, no-nonsense style.
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sta
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Post by sta on Aug 2, 2021 21:34:35 GMT -5
In any event, you also have a right to work for a private employer, many of whom are also requiring vaccination by the way. Public employees serve the public, and they can’t do that if they are out sick (or worse) due to COVID. God forbid if a public employee actually infects a veteran at VA hospital or clinic. The new covid Delta variant is spreading totally differently, and it maybe more likely that a vaccinated public employee who has a breakthrough case spreads an infection to a veteran at a VA hospital or clinic than an unvaccinated one. From personal experience with a breakthrough case, this virus is turbocharged: Within hours of exposure at close quarters to staff and customers for an hour without a mask in a Walmart, I began to suffer mild sniffle symptoms. Most people would not think much of this, and surely would not get tested. But I suspected it and sure enough I got a positive test result. How many people are walking around who are oblivious to the fact they are spreading, although vaccinated, based on having a mild or asymptomatic breakthrough like I had. |
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Post by superalj on Aug 2, 2021 21:48:05 GMT -5
Thankfully it was only mild sniffle symptoms and hope nothing more in the future. From the “mild” side effects I had just a for few hours from the second dose of the vaccine, I wouldn’t dare call any covid infection with symptoms “mild”.
I just can’t understand why our fellow citizens just don’t get the vaccine. I remember walking through the “vaccine line” at Paris Island and me cutting up my arm because I jerked when they shot me with one of those vaccine guns-reminded me of getting shot with a staple gun. Regardless, any vaccine was good enough for the USMC was good enough for me.
With all this hostility to science whether it’s public health or climate change, I’m starting to feel like our country is about to “jump the shark.” As someone who has risked his life for this country, it really makes me sad.
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Post by superalj on Aug 2, 2021 21:55:44 GMT -5
Good to know (now), and I appreciate this post. Respectable points. Irrespective, individuals should not be mandated to take the vaccine or fear losing their jobs. My body my choice, right? I mean, under Roe v. Wade we all have the right of privacy, don't we? [b “Your body, your choice?” Yep, you have the right to not take the vaccine and get sick. Your employer has the right and moral obligation (and you) to prevent you from getting the public and your colleagues serious ill or worse . Your rights stop at at the end of my nose, literally. |
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Post by carrickfergus on Aug 3, 2021 5:47:21 GMT -5
A little black letter law Jacobson v Massachusetts 197 US 11 (1905) well established that the liberty secured by the Constitution does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State (in support of the states compelling interest in enforcing vaccination in light of a highly communicable disease) Just saying Easterbrook just applied Jacobson to IU’s vaccine mandate for the 7th circuit today. It took him four whole pages to affirm it. media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2021/D08-02/C:21-2326:J:Easterbrook:aut:T:op:N:2741753:S:0And yesterday our state's AG told our flagship state university that its mandate was illegal. We'll see how this plays out in the red circuits and the scotus. I don't think stare decisis will cramp their style. |
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Post by ba on Aug 3, 2021 6:09:46 GMT -5
And yesterday our state's AG told our flagship state university that its mandate was illegal. We'll see how this plays out in the red circuits and the scotus. I don't think stare decisis will cramp their style. The panel was Easterbrook (Reagan) and two Trump appointees. |
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Post by hopefalj on Aug 3, 2021 7:31:30 GMT -5
I take no solace that unvaccinated people are dying. This administration has totally failed to convince those who are convincible to get vaccinated. The number who are philosophically opposed is rather small. Carrot Top had a great comment (saw him last week): "Why do we think someone cramming Big Macs in his pie hole is worried about putting something unknown into his body?" Promising no masks for the vaccinated and welching on that won't help. I’d love to see a Venn diagram of those who won’t be convinced to take the vaccine and those that believe the current administration and deep state stole the election. |
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Post by nylawyer on Aug 3, 2021 8:13:38 GMT -5
I take no solace that unvaccinated people are dying. This administration has totally failed to convince those who are convincible to get vaccinated. The number who are philosophically opposed is rather small. Carrot Top had a great comment (saw him last week): "Why do we think someone cramming Big Macs in his pie hole is worried about putting something unknown into his body?" Promising no masks for the vaccinated and welching on that won't help. I’d love to see a Venn diagram of those who won’t be convinced to take the vaccine and those that believe the current administration and deep state stole the election. While there is obviously some significant overlap between the groups, it is not to the degree that the prevailing narrative would have you believe. There was a story in NY Times this past weekend that went into greater detail as to whom the unvaccinated are. Unsurprisingly, economic circumstances and access to health care is a factor (even if the vaccine is available to everyone, if you are not someone who typically gets treatment or sees a doctor you are less likely to seek out the vaccine. People in rural areas are less likely to be vaccinated. But, on the other hand, only half of Cook County Illinois and Los Angelas have been vaccinated. In NYC most of Manhattan south of 96th Street is vaccinated, but not so much the outer boroughs, particularly in areas like the South Bronx or East New York. So, while there is no doubt that there is an (incredibly depressing) political correlation between rabid Trump supporters and those refusing vaccines, there are also plenty of people not getting the vaccine for other reasons. |
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Post by stevil on Aug 3, 2021 14:33:45 GMT -5
I saw a similar study which identified the common narrative that far right folk are refusing to get vaccinated, but also that African American and Latino communities are disproportionately represented in the unvaccinated population. Not sure what all this really means, except that there are all kinds of folks not getting vaccinated.
Now I consider it to be significantly different when folks aren't vaccinated because where they live or their socio-economic condition may cause issues with receiving health care, versus a guy like the Republican Committee member from Florida who calls vaccinations the "mark of the devil." Hopefully, continued vaccination programs can reach the hard to find and serve. As for that Floridian, one of my early military commanders stated it best - "you can't fix stupid."
Maybe Darwinism will sort it for us before we all get a mutated variant that laughs at the vaccine.
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Post by recoveringalj on Aug 3, 2021 16:53:58 GMT -5
I’m now seeing articles reporting that 70% of the US population has now gotten at least one COVID vaccine shot and a marked increase in vaccinations in hotspots/holdout areas. It seems the winds may be shifting.
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Post by FrogEsq on Aug 3, 2021 18:54:01 GMT -5
I’m now seeing articles reporting that 70% of the US population has now gotten at least one COVID vaccine shot and a marked increase in vaccinations in hotspots/holdout areas. It seems the winds may be shifting. The figures I read in the Post today are 49.7% fully vaccinated 57.8% with at least one dose
My thoughts. I read that there is a significant correlation between politics and vaccination perceptions/compliance. This correlation runs consistent when identifying the areas of the country where the Delta variant is uncontrolled with observed co-occurring low immunization rates.
Forgive my forebodings, but I do not believe this country will be able to vaccinate much more of the population even with a legal mandate. The carnival-like offers to induce people to get a vaccination are a waste of resources and, worse, give a false perception of progress in this area. This is not about education. Those folks are not ambivalent about the vaccine. They have made their decision. There will be a significant percentage of those non-vaccinated who will not voluntarily comply. Where are these non-vaccinated folks and are there many of them? Well, compare those aforementioned political perspectives, to those areas of the country where those perspectives are popular, with the areas the Delta variant is high.
We are trying to be more responsive to changing variations of the infection. One action we are now taking is to aggressively genome sequence all of the variants ourselves. Why do this? With the recalcitrant, un-vaccinated population in this country, does anyone seriously doubt there will be an 'American' version of the virus? How much worse could it get?
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Post by nylawyer on Aug 3, 2021 19:03:25 GMT -5
I’m now seeing articles reporting that 70% of the US population has now gotten at least one COVID vaccine shot and a marked increase in vaccinations in hotspots/holdout areas. It seems the winds may be shifting. The figures I read in the Post today are 49.7% fully vaccinated 57.8% with at least one dose My thoughts. I read that there is a significant correlation between politics and vaccination perceptions/compliance. This correlation runs consistent when identifying the areas of the country where the Delta variant is uncontrolled with observed co-occurring low immunization rates.
Forgive my forebodings, but I do not believe this country will be able to vaccinate much more of the population even with a legal mandate. The carnival-like offers to induce people to get a vaccination are a waste of resources and, worse, give a false perception of progress in this area. This is not about education. Those folks are not ambivalent about the vaccine. They have made their decision. There will be a significant percentage of those non-vaccinated who will not voluntarily comply. Where are these non-vaccinated folks and are there many of them? Well, compare those aforementioned political perspectives, to those areas of the country where those perspectives are popular, with the areas the Delta variant is high.
We are trying to be more responsive to changing variations of the infection. One action we are now taking is to aggressively genome sequence all of the variants ourselves. Why do this? With the recalcitrant, un-vaccinated population in this country, does anyone seriously doubt there will be an 'American' version of the virus? How much worse could it get?
The 57% number is of the total US population, including children too young to be eligible for the vaccine. Among those eligible it is now over 70% with at least one shot. Polling shows about 10% of the adult population describes themselves as unvaccinated, but persuadable. www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html |
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Post by carrickfergus on Aug 4, 2021 12:43:41 GMT -5
Pro-life/pro-choice arguments aside, I don't see how well Roe and/or Casey apply to the debate over legality of the vaccine mandate, because the first choice involves the health consequences for one individual, and the second choice is consequential not only for that individual but also all the people she's had contact with, and all the people those people have had contact with, etc.
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