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Post by superalj on Aug 7, 2021 19:44:19 GMT -5
Anyone hear the scuttlebutt that TPTB are planning to bring back retired judges?
If this is true, I think it’s a terrible idea for more than one reason.
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Post by TigerLaw on Aug 7, 2021 22:41:12 GMT -5
I don't know why anyone would come back after retirement (other than financial reasons), but I haven't heard that plan. I don't think it will happen as we have HOCALJs and other ALJs with short dockets due to the unavailable cases, but in these times, who knows. But if I got bored in retirement, coming back to this job would be the next to last thing I would do with getting a root canal as the last thing I would do after retirement!  |
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Post by hopefalj on Aug 8, 2021 9:43:19 GMT -5
I don't know why anyone would come back after retirement (other than financial reasons), but I haven't heard that plan. I don't think it will happen as we have HOCALJs and other ALJs with short dockets due to the unavailable cases, but in these times, who knows. But if I got bored in retirement, coming back to this job would be the next to last thing I would do with getting a root canal as the last thing I would do after retirement! Believe it or not, there are a number of people who retire without plans or post-retirement goals. They find themselves suddenly faced with tons of empty time with nothing to do after spending their lives working and achieving things. They become restless, annoy their spouse, etc. It is unfortunate. I long ago resolved to be like my great uncle. He counted the days to his retirement at age 58 (had a sweet pension and low overhead) because he was going to play golf 4-5 days a week, keep a garden, travel to see family around the country with my great aunt, and drink beer while watching the local professional teams. And you know what he did the last 25 years of his life? Enjoyed every day playing golf, gardening, traveling, and drinking Corona. You’ve got plans, so you’ll leave and never look back. I have a few years longer than you do, but I also have no shortage of things I’d rather do than go to work every day. |
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Post by Topperlaw on Aug 8, 2021 21:41:09 GMT -5
When I am ready to retire at age 67 in 22 years (with 40 years of federal service), with modest COLAs each year, my salary will be $320,000 (possibly more ife we were to get a raise sometime in the next 22 years).
If I were a retired annuitant making that salary plus a FERS of $140,000 for a total salary of $460,000 a year, darn right I'd take a job offer to come back.
We get nearly 6 weeks vacation a year plus 11 federal holidays (sometimes 12 with Christmas Eve off), in a job where I get a 3-day weekend every single week. There's nothing I'd rather do in retirement than get paid nearly half a million dollars a year for a job I have to do 44 weeks a year 4 days a week.
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Post by sealaw90 on Aug 9, 2021 12:39:45 GMT -5
It is true. I don't know why or who would come back. Hopefully more to follow...
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Post by superalj on Aug 9, 2021 13:00:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the confirmation. I just wish they would hire a new class instead of recycling retired ALJs who have already had their chance. I rarely had good experiences with senior ALJs when I was a DW as their instructions were generally terrible and most were not well trained or policy compliant.
I just think SSA would be much better served by a diverse class of new judges hungry to learn and hear cases instead of double dippers coming out of retirement.
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Post by fowlfinder on Aug 9, 2021 13:27:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the confirmation. I just wish they would hire a new class instead of recycling retired ALJs who have already had their chance. I rarely had good experiences with senior ALJs when I was a DW as their instructions were generally terrible and most were not well trained or policy compliant. I just think SSA would be much better served by a diverse class of new judges hungry to learn and hear cases instead of double dippers coming out of retirement. I would assume that bringing retired ALJs back is easier and faster than hiring and onboarding new ALJs. It is also easier to downsize them that a new crop of ALJs if the anticipated surge of cases turns out to not be accurate. It makes a lot of logistical sense. (Though I would also prefer new hires, which I don't expect will be on the table for discussion to at least the FY22 budge is passed). |
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Post by ssaogc on Aug 9, 2021 13:52:26 GMT -5
When I am ready to retire at age 67 in 22 years (with 40 years of federal service), with modest COLAs each year, my salary will be $320,000 (possibly more ife we were to get a raise sometime in the next 22 years). If I were a retired annuitant making that salary plus a FERS of $140,000 for a total salary of $460,000 a year, darn right I'd take a job offer to come back. We get nearly 6 weeks vacation a year plus 11 federal holidays (sometimes 12 with Christmas Eve off), in a job where I get a 3-day weekend every single week. There's nothing I'd rather do in retirement than get paid nearly half a million dollars a year for a job I have to do 44 weeks a year 4 days a week. 22 more years of being an ALJ? God Bless you, I am thinking of finishing out my high 3 and going back to a GS 14 or GS 15 position in another agency where I still have contacts. retired annuitant ALJs generally come back on a part time basis. They do not get an office and work out of a cubicle. The ones we had all left quickly when they were informed they needed to pick up hearings in an office that was located away from their homes. But all of this might change with the new HACPS and MS Teams technology. The only one I know that is doing the retired annuitant program is our former CALJ out of her old office. unless you need the money or have dependent adult children or just absolutely love being an ALJ you should plan for a retirement where you can do things you enjoy like traveling teaching playing golf etc |
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Post by rightspeech on Aug 9, 2021 14:22:28 GMT -5
When I am ready to retire at age 67 in 22 years (with 40 years of federal service), with modest COLAs each year, my salary will be $320,000 (possibly more ife we were to get a raise sometime in the next 22 years). If I were a retired annuitant making that salary plus a FERS of $140,000 for a total salary of $460,000 a year, darn right I'd take a job offer to come back. We get nearly 6 weeks vacation a year plus 11 federal holidays (sometimes 12 with Christmas Eve off), in a job where I get a 3-day weekend every single week. There's nothing I'd rather do in retirement than get paid nearly half a million dollars a year for a job I have to do 44 weeks a year 4 days a week. Sums it up pretty nicely. It's been said before and it always ends in a tiff but SSA ALJ compensation package has always been totally outrageous. Most SSA ALJs make more than US Senators. |
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Post by anderson on Aug 9, 2021 14:39:35 GMT -5
Most SSA ALJs make more than US Senators. I find that hard to believe. |
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Post by rightspeech on Aug 9, 2021 14:46:23 GMT -5
Most SSA ALJs make more than US Senators. I find that hard to believe. Google says US Senator makes $174k salary. Most ALJs in my 'rest of US' locality pay office made 181.5k in 2020 according to fedsdatacenter.com It is hard to believe. About 1000 of 1300 entries made 181.5k |
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Post by arkstfan on Aug 9, 2021 18:53:16 GMT -5
When I am ready to retire at age 67 in 22 years (with 40 years of federal service), with modest COLAs each year, my salary will be $320,000 (possibly more ife we were to get a raise sometime in the next 22 years). If I were a retired annuitant making that salary plus a FERS of $140,000 for a total salary of $460,000 a year, darn right I'd take a job offer to come back. We get nearly 6 weeks vacation a year plus 11 federal holidays (sometimes 12 with Christmas Eve off), in a job where I get a 3-day weekend every single week. There's nothing I'd rather do in retirement than get paid nearly half a million dollars a year for a job I have to do 44 weeks a year 4 days a week. Sums it up pretty nicely. It's been said before and it always ends in a tiff but SSA ALJ compensation package has always been totally outrageous. Most SSA ALJs make more than US Senators. Most ALJ’s turn out more work and they don’t get anyone letting them in on sweet investments nor do they get briefings that can be used to inform when to dump stocks. Funny I was on a Reddit group yesterday where people were talking about a lousy offer of $214,000 for a job out of law school and another said had hired someone for an in-house counsel position for $390,000 and wasn’t sure the hire would take the pay cut. There’s plenty of low pay law jobs but the competitive hiring system was never about hiring fresh from law school candidates with little experience and few professional achievements. |
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Post by natethegreat on Aug 9, 2021 18:57:09 GMT -5
Sums it up pretty nicely. It's been said before and it always ends in a tiff but SSA ALJ compensation package has always been totally outrageous. Most SSA ALJs make more than US Senators. Most ALJ’s turn out more work and they don’t get anyone letting them in on sweet investments nor do they get briefings that can be used to inform when to dump stocks. Funny I was on a Reddit group yesterday where people were talking about a lousy offer of $214,000 for a job out of law school and another said had hired someone for an in-house counsel position for $390,000 and wasn’t sure the hire would take the pay cut. There’s plenty of low pay law jobs but the competitive hiring system was never about hiring fresh from law school candidates with little experience and few professional achievements. I would imagine how impressive/unimpressive ALJ compensation seems always varies greatly with locality. $180k in the middle of the country puts an ALJ in a very different spot compared to $180k in NYC or the Bay Area. |
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Post by okthen on Aug 9, 2021 19:01:27 GMT -5
When I am ready to retire at age 67 in 22 years (with 40 years of federal service), with modest COLAs each year, my salary will be $320,000 (possibly more ife we were to get a raise sometime in the next 22 years). If I were a retired annuitant making that salary plus a FERS of $140,000 for a total salary of $460,000 a year, darn right I'd take a job offer to come back. We get nearly 6 weeks vacation a year plus 11 federal holidays (sometimes 12 with Christmas Eve off), in a job where I get a 3-day weekend every single week. There's nothing I'd rather do in retirement than get paid nearly half a million dollars a year for a job I have to do 44 weeks a year 4 days a week. Sums it up pretty nicely. It's been said before and it always ends in a tiff but SSA ALJ compensation package has always been totally outrageous. Most SSA ALJs make more than US Senators. Both of these are over simplistic. 320k in 22 years is extremely optimistic. At 2.0% average per year, it’s like 280k. And no guarantee you get 2.0% avg. last 14 years, the average is barely over 1%. And the SSA ALJ pay package is not “outrageous.” It tops out in the mid-180’s, which in terms of salaries, is a good salary, but below many partner-level incomes in private practice. You need to offer a good salary to attract talent. My state has ALJs that are paid like GS13’s. They typically have to hire attorneys that are 4-8 years into their practice, as the most experienced attorneys will not take the pay cut for the job. |
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Post by rightspeech on Aug 9, 2021 20:10:00 GMT -5
It is outrageous. It's a public service job, comparing it to private law firm salary/partner draw is silly. No one should be expecting an extravagant salary from the government like an associate/partner at a some AmLaw top 100 firm would earn. And those biglaw guys kill themselves, they work like 60-80 hours per week in high stress high stakes environment. ALJS ask 500 people per year whether they think they could lift a gallon of milk or not
🤗🤗
Like topper said it's 44 weeks a year/40 hours per week. Most importantly, in a competitive market there are plenty of qualified people that would effectively perform the work for substantially less. Anyone 4-8 years into their practice could effectively adjudicate disability claims.
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Post by okthen on Aug 9, 2021 20:21:08 GMT -5
It is outrageous. It's a public service job, comparing it to private law firm salary/partner draw is silly. No one should be expecting an extravagant salary from the government like an associate/partner at a some AmLaw top 100 firm would earn. And those biglaw guys kill themselves, they work like 60-80 hours per week in high stress high stakes environment. ALJS ask 500 people per year whether they think they could lift a gallon of milk or not Like topper said it's 44 weeks a year/40 hours per week. Most importantly, in a competitive market there are plenty of qualified people that would effectively perform the work for substantially less. I don’t know where you live, but you don’t need to be in AmLaw 100 firm to make more than a federal ALJ. I live in a moderately sized Midwestern city, and know plenty of people in small firms (6-15 attorneys) making significantly more than that. Yes, they are partner or shareholder level people - let’s say about 15-25 years in practice. But more than that, my peers in the insurance and financial industries outpace the federal ALJ salaries, as well, and they didn’t get the added bonus of law school debt/firm buy-ins. And all of them work similar hours to a federal ALJ - probably with more flexibility too in reality. |
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Post by nylawyer on Aug 9, 2021 20:21:17 GMT -5
It is outrageous. It's a public service job, comparing it to private law firm salary/partner draw is silly. No one should be expecting an extravagant salary from the government like an associate/partner at a some AmLaw top 100 firm would earn. And those biglaw guys kill themselves, they work like 60-80 hours per week in high stress high stakes environment. ALJS ask 500 people per year whether they think they could lift a gallon of milk or not 🤗🤗 Like topper said it's 44 weeks a year/40 hours per week. Most importantly, in a competitive market there are plenty of qualified people that would effectively perform the work for substantially less. Out of curiousity, how do you calculate 44 weeks? |
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Post by rightspeech on Aug 9, 2021 20:35:08 GMT -5
Yea but even your small law boys have to schmooze clients, bill hourly, network, worry about paying the bills and keeping the shop open. The ALJ has no worries, almost no one has ever seen an ALJ involuntarily lose their job it doesn't happen. It's a sweet gig, especially in low cost of living areas insinuating anything else is disingenuous.
It just doesn't get attention. If Sean Hannity ran a segment about the compensation vs the duties and responsibilities people would be outraged. The line ALJ makes more than the Senator that represents millions of people.
So 8 hours annual leave per pay period (when ALJ has 15+ years, military time is counted) that's 26 days off. 11-12 federal holidays that's 37-38 days off, which come out 7 weeks 3 days which is a bit over 44 weeks. If you take only 2 of your 13 sick days you get per year (4 hours per pay period) you get to 44 weeks. If you only get 6 hours leave per pay period (3-15 years) you prob work 1 more week a year.
As I initially said though bit of a tiff here. Everyone wants to feel like they're providing value. It doesn't really matter. The system is what it is and it's been this way for a long time.
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Post by okthen on Aug 9, 2021 20:54:48 GMT -5
Yea but even your small law boys have to schmooze clients, bill hourly, network, worry about paying the bills and keeping the shop open. The ALJ has no worries, almost no one has ever seen an ALJ involuntarily lose their job it doesn't happen. It's a sweet gig, especially in low cost of living areas insinuating anything else is disingenuous. It just doesn't get attention. If Sean Hannity ran a segment about the compensation vs the duties and responsibilities people would be outraged. The line ALJ makes more than the Senator that represents millions of people. So 8 hours annual leave per pay period (when ALJ has 15+ years, military time is counted) that's 26 days off. 11-12 federal holidays that's 37-38 days off, which come out 7 weeks 3 days which is a bit over 45 weeks. If you take only 2 of your 13 sick days you get per year (4 hours per pay period) you get to 44 weeks. If you only get 6 hours leave per pay period (3-15 years) you prob work 1 more week a year. Boys? Both men and women have those jobs. Writers have the same leave as Judges. In fact, every employee in the federal government does. Only for judges, they don’t get a break from production requirements when they take theirs. DWPI is an insufficient metric, no doubt, but writers do not get their sick and vacation time counted against them when they are gone. You used a hyperbolic term (“outrageous”) to describe the salary of judges. That’s what I called you out for. It’s not outrageous; it’s good, like I said in the beginning. A lot of bad reps use outlandish descriptions, as well. Don’t fall prey that style of argument. It won’t serve you well as a Judge someday. |
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Post by nylawyer on Aug 9, 2021 20:58:00 GMT -5
So 8 hours annual leave per pay period (when ALJ has 15+ years, military time is counted) that's 26 days off. 11-12 federal holidays that's 37-38 days off, which come out 7 weeks 3 days which is a bit over 44 weeks. If you take only 2 of your 13 sick days you get per year (4 hours per pay period) you get to 44 weeks. If you only get 6 hours leave per pay period (3-15 years) you prob work 1 more week a year. The only problem is you assume each ALJ uses all of their annual time time each year, in addition to some sick time. That certainly has not been my personal experience; and if the union is to be believed, it is common for ALJs to forfeit a significant number of hours each year. |
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