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Post by generalsherman on Aug 17, 2022 11:21:35 GMT -5
I filed my application for this, that was a real pain in the butt!
Does anyone have any insight into what this job is like? Based on the description it seems interesting, although I do wonder how it can be 100% remote. You can PM me if you don’t want to say anything publicly.
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Post by rightspeech on Aug 17, 2022 11:39:49 GMT -5
basically everyone in OGC is gs14 or gs15. 14 is essentially automatic after a year at 13. 15 is not automatic but they do have non-supervisory 15s.
This is confirmed by feddatacenter.com salary information.
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Post by hillsarealive on Aug 17, 2022 12:06:44 GMT -5
basically everyone in OGC is gs14 or gs15. 14 is essentially automatic after a year at 13. 15 is not automatic but they do have non-supervisory 15s. This is confirmed by feddatacenter.com salary information. Yes, this is more or less correct. You have to qualify for 14 based on matters completed, and it may take somewhat longer than a year, but the vast majority of attorneys end up at 14 AFAIK. The supervisors are all 15s. Non-supervisory 15s exist, but they are rare. |
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Post by christina on Aug 17, 2022 13:45:48 GMT -5
I filed my application for this, that was a real pain in the butt! Does anyone have any insight into what this job is like? Based on the description it seems interesting, although I do wonder how it can be 100% remote. You can PM me if you don’t want to say anything publicly. It was a challenging application |
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Post by hillsarealive on Aug 17, 2022 14:50:44 GMT -5
I filed my application for this, that was a real pain in the butt! Does anyone have any insight into what this job is like? Based on the description it seems interesting, although I do wonder how it can be 100% remote. You can PM me if you don’t want to say anything publicly. I just PM'd you. |
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Post by abthejd on Aug 17, 2022 15:51:20 GMT -5
I filed my application for this, that was a real pain in the butt! Does anyone have any insight into what this job is like? Based on the description it seems interesting, although I do wonder how it can be 100% remote. You can PM me if you don’t want to say anything publicly. I just PM'd you. Care to forward that PM? I’m in OHO and not sure if the switch is worth it or not, as the job description leaves more to be desired. |
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Post by briscoej on Aug 17, 2022 17:21:45 GMT -5
For those speculating that the lack of an internal posting implies disinterest in OHO attorneys I don’t think that’s the case. They just told OGC attorneys the posting was coming last week while also telling us how they are recruiting widely to get a diverse applicant pool—the Commissioner has made similar statements in emails about recruitment efforts. Also remember that OGC is a different component so it’s not he same as comparing this to getting advanced notice of the ALJ hiring. I doubt OHO is super enthusiastic about OGC poaching their top attorneys. The office I am in has hired multiple OHO attorneys since I have been there.
In terms of the job, those are two very different positions. The average program litigation attorney spends the bulk of their time writing briefs defending ALJ disability denials for filing in district court. You will also draft various other pleadings and handle appeals. I would say the ability to write well and review large volumes of information quickly are more important than having litigated a case. The average general law attorney is going to handle employment advice and litigation—EEOC is the highest volume of litigation, but there are also arbitrations, MSPB work, and working with the USAO on district court employment litigation. Writing skills are also important and litigation experience will definitely help. There is other more specialized work that attorneys do in both divisions but I suspect that is what the workload is going to be for the new hires.
Also know that OGC is part way through a massive reorganization that favors specialization over the prior regional office structure. I think this will all be for the better but it’s so new right now. Good luck to everyone that applied. As others have said you can get to 14 pretty quickly.
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Post by stevenq on Aug 17, 2022 20:12:04 GMT -5
That's basically what I was implying, OGC didn't even bother asking OHO to send out an email to all attorneys. OGC has no repsect for OHO but SSA should make them have respect. Espeically since I'd imagine it's only a few positions, so there is no way that OGC would be unable to find a couple OHO attorneys that could do the job well. Whoever they are hiring is going to require training regardless of having litigation experience. Thing is they aren't going to get experienced litigators for a GS-13 listing. Just not happening in this job market. Sure they will. There are plenty of younger, maybe with slightly lower markings of prestige, attorneys out there grinding 60-hour weeks for smaller firms making less than the $100k or so a 13 will get them from the jump. Lots of younger attorneys love the ideas of a roughly 40-hour work week and premier benefits (what other legal jobs have both?!), and the ability to get into the low or mid $100s in salary is plenty of moola for many of them. Heck, if they have significant student loan debt, then the financial benefit of PSLF alone could be worth tens of thousands of salary over a long period! All that to say, while OGC at SSA may not be perfect, it's markedly better than being an attorney at OHO and for the tiny few who have and will make the jump, good for you/I'm rooting for you. |
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Post by superalj on Aug 17, 2022 21:41:26 GMT -5
I agree with the last post that OGC will get plenty applicants both inside and outside the government. Why else limit the number in the posting?
I hope they hire insiders bc our OHO attorneys work hard and have very limited upward mobility options unlike other government agencies. I remember a lot of 14s and some 15s in my ALJ class from other government agencies. Regardless of OGC or OHO, a federal government attorney job is a good gig. I never worked at a big firm but had my own practice and it was always 60 hours plus a week whether it was feast or famine. I always had to worry about getting clients and being able to endure lulls so even a 12 with OT with federal benefits got me to around a 100k.
As to the previous poster and OGC not respecting OHO attorneys, who knows and if so, there loss. I will say that OGC loses a lot in federal court compared to US attorneys and other agencies but maybe it’s because of some shoddy ALJ decisions they have to defend LOL.
Regardless, good luck to those that apply and I’m sure it’s a good stepping stone to being an ALJ when they open the books for more hiring.
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Post by lawyeredbylaws on Aug 17, 2022 22:41:01 GMT -5
Sure they will. There are plenty of younger, maybe with slightly lower markings of prestige, attorneys out there grinding 60-hour weeks for smaller firms making less than the $100k or so a 13 will get them from the jump. Lots of younger attorneys love the ideas of a roughly 40-hour work week and premier benefits (what other legal jobs have both?!), and the ability to get into the low or mid $100s in salary is plenty of moola for many of them. Heck, if they have significant student loan debt, then the financial benefit of PSLF alone could be worth tens of thousands of salary over a long period! All that to say, while OGC at SSA may not be perfect, it's markedly better than being an attorney at OHO and for the tiny few who have and will make the jump, good for you/I'm rooting for you. I dunno. First year associates in the smaller'ish city I'm in are getting $200,000 plus signing bonuses. A GS-13/1 is not even six figures in some cities. Throw in the fact that SSA is ranked 15 out of 17 best places to work in the Federal Government, all of a sudden not that appealing. This job here www.usajobs.gov/Job/665701400 in a much better agency only got 300 some applicants. But yeah I definitely hope a couple OHO attorneys here get hired at OGC. |
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Post by stevenq on Aug 18, 2022 7:24:43 GMT -5
Sure they will. There are plenty of younger, maybe with slightly lower markings of prestige, attorneys out there grinding 60-hour weeks for smaller firms making less than the $100k or so a 13 will get them from the jump. Lots of younger attorneys love the ideas of a roughly 40-hour work week and premier benefits (what other legal jobs have both?!), and the ability to get into the low or mid $100s in salary is plenty of moola for many of them. Heck, if they have significant student loan debt, then the financial benefit of PSLF alone could be worth tens of thousands of salary over a long period! All that to say, while OGC at SSA may not be perfect, it's markedly better than being an attorney at OHO and for the tiny few who have and will make the jump, good for you/I'm rooting for you. I dunno. First year associates in the smaller'ish city I'm in are getting $200,000 plus signing bonuses. A GS-13/1 is not even six figures in some cities. Throw in the fact that SSA is ranked 15 out of 17 best places to work in the Federal Government, all of a sudden not that appealing. This job here www.usajobs.gov/Job/665701400 in a much better agency only got 300 some applicants. But yeah I definitely hope a couple OHO attorneys here get hired at OGC. $200k starting out is white shoe amlaw 100 territory, meaning the top half (if that) of the top 14 or so law schools and maybe the top couple grads at the remaining top 100 or so law schools. This ain't 2009-2015, SSA OGC can't reasonably hope to be attracting folks from the Ivies anymore lol. And maybe starting salaries at less big firms is better these days, I'm old. But still, $100k or so with a quick path to $120+ is nothing to sneeze at, particularly considering the aforementioned perks. By the time they are older and the debt's gone and they're experienced enough to make real money, they'll either jump into the shark infested waters of private practice for that chance or stay put and enjoy the relatively infinitely easier day-to-day. |
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Post by christina on Aug 18, 2022 7:43:44 GMT -5
I've learned the following about these jobs.
OGC is currently going through a reorganization and will allow for 100% remote work. It may also be possible to live more than 2 hours from one of the regional OGC offices. Some recent detailees from OHO have begun receiving offers. Changes being made for efficiency and streamlining work processes. Instead of attorneys doing program litigation and other workloads like labor and employment, ethics, etc., they’re moving towards specialization. For example, for program litigation, instead of following a regional model, they’re moving to a division model. Each division generally tracks one or two circuits. Attorneys won’t necessarily be practicing where they live or where their ODS is (but again, OGC is fully remote now).
Until next time, Chris!
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Post by rightspeech on Aug 18, 2022 8:43:20 GMT -5
Where are these OGC details coming from? I don't think I've seen an attorney OGC detail announcement in the past 3-5 years.
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Post by lawyeredbylaws on Aug 18, 2022 9:14:49 GMT -5
$200k starting out is white shoe amlaw 100 territory, meaning the top half (if that) of the top 14 or so law schools and maybe the top couple grads at the remaining top 100 or so law schools. This ain't 2009-2015, SSA OGC can't reasonably hope to be attracting folks from the Ivies anymore lol. And maybe starting salaries at less big firms is better these days, I'm old. But still, $100k or so with a quick path to $120+ is nothing to sneeze at, particularly considering the aforementioned perks. By the time they are older and the debt's gone and they're experienced enough to make real money, they'll either jump into the shark infested waters of private practice for that chance or stay put and enjoy the relatively infinitely easier day-to-day. I thought the same thing about salaries until I recently had lunch with a friend who is doing hiring at a mid-sized local firm. Almost made me want to apply to be a first year associate for him. But not really appreciate the flexibility and hours as a fed too much. By the way the OGL job has now closed as they got the 500. GL to everyone who got in. |
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Post by fishecy on Aug 18, 2022 9:17:11 GMT -5
Region VI received a recruitment flyer email for the exact same two jobs from OGC on June 3, 2022. I still applied to the usajob announcements. However, this morning I received an email from OGC, stating they received my application from June.
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Post by christina on Aug 18, 2022 9:18:11 GMT -5
$200k starting out is white shoe amlaw 100 territory, meaning the top half (if that) of the top 14 or so law schools and maybe the top couple grads at the remaining top 100 or so law schools. This ain't 2009-2015, SSA OGC can't reasonably hope to be attracting folks from the Ivies anymore lol. And maybe starting salaries at less big firms is better these days, I'm old. But still, $100k or so with a quick path to $120+ is nothing to sneeze at, particularly considering the aforementioned perks. By the time they are older and the debt's gone and they're experienced enough to make real money, they'll either jump into the shark infested waters of private practice for that chance or stay put and enjoy the relatively infinitely easier day-to-day. I thought the same thing about salaries until I recently had lunch with a friend who is doing hiring at a mid-sized local firm. Almost made me want to apply to be a first year associate for him. But not really appreciate the flexibility and hours as a fed too much. By the way the OGL job has now closed as they got the 500. GL to everyone who got in. To clarify one job is still open the lit job but the 2nd job closed www.usajobs.gov/job/670992300 Here is link re job still accepting apps |
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trent
New Member
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Post by trent on Aug 18, 2022 9:29:15 GMT -5
Where are these OGC details coming from? I don't think I've seen an attorney OGC detail announcement in the past 3-5 years. There was a nationwide one sent to GS-12 OHO DW in summer of 2020. Each regional office was listed as hiring detailees. It is my understanding that many were extended/eventually kept on after the detail ended. |
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Post by hillsarealive on Aug 18, 2022 9:54:54 GMT -5
Also know that OGC is part way through a massive reorganization that favors specialization over the prior regional office structure. I think this will all be for the better but it’s so new right now. Good luck to everyone that applied. As others have said you can get to 14 pretty quickly. About this. Specialization makes sense from a productivity standpoint, but it saddens me to a degree. Back in the day, an OGC attorney might find herself handling district court cases (program lit), EEOC work (general law), and the odd legal opinion now and again (program law). Plenty of other workloads too, some of them quite fascinating for a person with the right mindset. The variety was a selling point of the job. It also gave new attorneys an opportunity to try out different workloads instead of being siloed in one area. Less efficient, sure, but in the long run this probably helped with attorney hiring, development, and retention, and those are matters of efficiency too. Specialization is the way of the future, but it will be challenge for OGC to find the right balance. On the plus side, OGC leadership seems well aware of these issues and that's half the battle. Maybe a robust program for details/transfers between branches will help to recapture some of the variety that may be missing in a pure specialization model. Maybe remote work is a big enough carrot to compensate for the loss of variety--I don't know. One other thing. For me, OGC has been pretty great. The work is good and the people are phenomenal. I received everything I was promised and then some. Others may feel differently, but that's been my experience. |
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dwfl
Full Member
Posts: 32
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Post by dwfl on Aug 18, 2022 19:10:42 GMT -5
Region VI received a recruitment flyer email for the exact same two jobs from OGC on June 3, 2022. That flyer said that the jobs were in "SSA headquarters and regional cities; outstationing may be available." The current postings allow work from anywhere. I'm not sure if the response to the flyer was low and resulted in a change or if the plan was always to post on USAjobs with no geographic limitations. OGC recruitment seems to be more difficult than I predicted. The ALJ posting lasted only 24 hours before 1,000 applications were received. The difference between ALJ and GS-14 pay is a about $30k at the final step, but you can perform the OGC job form the beach in Islamorada or the slopes of Aspen. Being an ALJ and living exactly where you want is hard to accomplish, so the lack of interest for these OGC jobs is surprising. |
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Post by ProScribe on Aug 18, 2022 19:50:00 GMT -5
I’m a DW and just finished 20 months working on a detail for OGC. I’m not applying because of the degree of micromanagement. I understand it - the motto is “one OGC” and they want each attorney in each office to approach each case the same way. But much time is lost in the process and I felt my skills and talents could be more efficiently used elsewhere. Moreover, each reviewer had their own peccadilloes to be assuaged so the uniformity goals aren’t yet met, to the detriment of the newbies. Those who’ve been around awhile will tell you the first couple of years is terrible but then you get more autonomy and it gets better. With the reorg, etc,, I wasn’t confident that would continue. But that’s just speculation on my part.
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