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Post by grassgreener on Nov 6, 2013 3:02:08 GMT -5
I would add that it appears unlikely that cities in California will appear on a cert. list in the near future. Receipts are low in that state and transfer lists are long for California.
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Post by privateatty on Nov 6, 2013 7:33:13 GMT -5
A word of caution to all applicants. While it passes the time to speculate on when the NOR will come out and how an agency does its hiring, please don't get too wrapped up in it. I have been a reader of the blog for many years and have seen the responses when the NOR do come out and later when the offers are made. Getting an appointment as an ALJ is never a sure thing, no matter how confident you may be in your abilities. There are people who have never been selected. Some have accepted with grace and others have become very bitter. While passing the time, you may want to think about the possibilities of failure, and how will you handle it? As I have said before, there are a large number of former prolific posters (and hundreds of lurkers I'm sure) that have abandoned this Board in disgust, anger and just plain hurt feelings. Read the Board. We are all highly competitive lawyers at heart, we have been sucessful and are hardly used to cavalier rejection. Art. III Judgeships are given due to connections and politics. Sure there are "panels", but that process is nothing like what y'all are going through. This business of selecting ALJs is brutal and somewhat demeaning--not for the faint of heart or the congenital backslapper. If you are at all prone to introspection, you can learn alot about yourself. Without naming names, that process here is well underway. For those with fire in their belly and a wide open GAL, well your desire will give you a leg up--even if you yourself don't see it. Just make sure those fires are banked and the ego is checked when you go in for your smell test (i.e., interview) at Puzzle Palace.
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Post by epic0ego on Nov 6, 2013 8:13:10 GMT -5
I have heard current ALJs say they could never have made it through this current process. And lets face it, many who made it through couldn't hold a candle to some who were rejected, but were picked for whatever reason. As seasoned lawyers, I am sure some of those who didn't make it, know how to deal with hurt and disgust as much as the next guy does. The decision to go through this process or not, often has nothing to do with one's ability to handle adversity - and may have everything to do with the particular life circumstances they find themselves in. I, for one, do not seek to attach labels to people. If that is all we do on this board we are being counterproductive, at best. As thinking, competitive people, some have found it helpful to discuss "the process" itself, the odds, and the various strategies that might help. It is beating a dead horse to repeat "wide open GAL" over and over, but that has proven to be a very effective strategy that might help newcomers to the board. I myself have benefited from hearing specific strategies and information from this board. So yes, stay motivated and do well on the interview if you get the call because that is all there is left to do. But recognize that you have already succeeded by getting to this point, and do not take the final process of geographic match-making personally.
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Post by moopigsdad on Nov 6, 2013 9:04:38 GMT -5
I don't know about any of that "couldn't hold a candle" stuff. The people who made it through to this point did so because they performed best on the testing placed before them. Well stated superbonbon! Anyone who makes it this far and earns a NOR is a survivor, even if they never receive an ALJ position. Yes, there is still an agency interview you can blow and forever ruin your chances at a position, but just to make it this far means you are a survivor. Here's hoping most of us eventually receive an ALJ position, but even if that doesn't occur you did much better than many other people who were part of the process and didn't make it this far. The question is not whether you are are winner or loser, but a survivor. You will be a winner if you eventually receive a position.
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Post by epic0ego on Nov 6, 2013 9:15:50 GMT -5
this is why you have to be careful about how the language of any post comes off to disparate readers. I have said many times and I will repeat that I am taking nothing away from those who have been selected as ALJs in the past. Congrats and I am truly happy for them no matter how meritorious or arbitrary the process may have been to select them. But the quality of certain ALJs, some of whom face discipline or indictment, has been widely reported in the press. This is by no means a reflection on ALJs generally, but my point is that there have been many, many ALJ candidates who were not selected and eventually gave up, who probably would have made better ALJs. I think ALJs are an incredibly talented group of professionals, which is one reason I am pursuing this process myself. But I also recognize that many were not selected purely because they did not have the right locations chosen or for other reasons having little or nothing to do with merit.
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true
Full Member
Posts: 81
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Post by true on Nov 6, 2013 9:28:53 GMT -5
I don't know about any of that "couldn't hold a candle" stuff. The people who made it through to this point did so because they performed best on the testing placed before them. Well stated superbonbon! Anyone who makes it this far and earns a NOR is a survivor, even if they never receive an ALJ position. Yes, there is still an agency interview you can blow and forever ruin your chances at a position, but just to make it this far means you are a survivor. Here's hoping most of us eventually receive an ALJ position, but even if that doesn't occur you did much better than many other people who were part of the process and didn't make it this far. The question is not whether you are are winner or loser, but a survivor. You will be a winner if you eventually receive a position. I agree. I know many senior attorneys and supervisors at ODAR who did not make it this far. To be honest, only 1 person from ODAR and a total of 6 attorneys made it to phase III in my state. I have chief judges asking me about the whole process! I am proud that I made it thus far!!
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Post by lurker/dibs on Nov 6, 2013 9:47:53 GMT -5
Yesterday I met someone who played the game and made it up to the DC phase and then didn't get the invitation to that dance. It was someone with more years experience than me. Someone who was extraordinarily articulate and compassionate. I was shocked she didn't make it through. Those of us who did make it through should count our blessings. We were talented and experienced and worthy of making it through, no doubt. But many who did not make it are equally talented, experienced, and worthy. I know that no matter what happens with hiring that I am extremely lucky to have made it this far. We all should be proud of ourselves I don't know what made us particularly stand out from the others, but something did and that can not be a bad thing. It's the season of thanksgiving. We should be counting our blessings. What will be will be from this phase forward and we have no personal control of that.
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Post by funkyodar on Nov 6, 2013 10:19:14 GMT -5
Just as a time waster I decided to look back at each of the aljs I have known in my brief 4 years with odar. I thought the resultinginfo was intriguing. I offerit below merely as a thought exercise and not to restart any insider v outsider, vet v nonvet war of words.
Background:
Relatively small crapland office. We have seen many transfers away after relatively brief stints by newly hired aljs. The office is set up for and staffed for 10 aljs but due to a couple of transfers, one promotion to hocalj and transfer and one retirement we have functioned for most of the last year with 6 aljs. we received one of the recent new hires who is now at training. Thus we have 7 aljs on staff.
Total aljs through the office during my tenure:
As mentioned, I have been with the office for a little over 4 years. During that time span, 19 different aljs have been assigned to our office. This counts the 7 there now but does not count one that came to us for a set detail period and left thenafter. I worked with and got to at least superficially know each of the 19.
Facts on the 19:
Only 4 did not have agency experience prior to being selected as aljs. One was a former state alj, the other three outsiders had worked for other federal agencies.
Only 3 were vets. 1 jag.
9 of the 19 had previously been senior attorneys.
1 successfully used ssa alj as a springboard to alj with a diff agency (the one she had worked for for years prior to joining ssa. she was with ssa for 2 years).
Of the 12 that came through and didn't stay, 2 left for hocalj positions elsewhere, 2 left for an nhc and the rest all got home or closer to home. The longest I saw anyone wait for a transfer was 18 months and that was to a very popular city.
We have had exactly one person transfer in to our office that wasn't originally from there.
Other than the 19, our office has had one senior attorney and one supervisory attorney selected as aljs and sent elsewhere.
I dunno how these #s stack up to other crapland offices. Iimagine we have had a lot more turnover than others but it may be about par.
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Post by sealaw90 on Nov 6, 2013 11:04:49 GMT -5
Great post Funky, and very informative, although I am wary of the # of posts this made for you - 666.
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Post by moopigsdad on Nov 6, 2013 11:16:52 GMT -5
Great post Funky, and very informative, although I am wary of the # of posts this made for you - 666. So, finally funky's true colors are shown. LOL! "666" what an apropo number for that post and its meaning for some of us.
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Post by moopigsdad on Nov 6, 2013 11:20:46 GMT -5
Just as a time waster I decided to look back at each of the aljs I have known in my brief 4 years with odar. I thought the resultinginfo was intriguing. I offerit below merely as a thought exercise and not to restart any insider v outsider, vet v nonvet war of words. Background: Relatively small crapland office. We have seen many transfers away after relatively brief stints by newly hired aljs. The office is set up for and staffed for 10 aljs but due to a couple of transfers, one promotion to hocalj and transfer and one retirement we have functioned for most of the last year with 6 aljs. we received one of the recent new hires who is now at training. Thus we have 7 aljs on staff. Total aljs through the office during my tenure: As mentioned, I have been with the office for a little over 4 years. During that time span, 19 different aljs have been assigned to our office. This counts the 7 there now but does not count one that came to us for a set detail period and left thenafter. I worked with and got to at least superficially know each of the 19. Facts on the 19: Only 4 did not have agency experience prior to being selected as aljs. One was a former state alj, the other three outsiders had worked for other federal agencies. Only 3 were vets. 1 jag. 9 of the 19 had previously been senior attorneys. 1 successfully used ssa alj as a springboard to alj with a diff agency (the one she had worked for for years prior to joining ssa. she was with ssa for 2 years). Of the 12 that came through and didn't stay, 2 left for hocalj positions elsewhere, 2 left for an nhc and the rest all got home or closer to home. The longest I saw anyone wait for a transfer was 18 months and that was to a very popular city. We have had exactly one person transfer in to our office that wasn't originally from there. Other than the 19, our office has had one senior attorney and one supervisory attorney selected as aljs and sent elsewhere. I dunno how these #s stack up to other crapland offices. Iimagine we have had a lot more turnover than others but it may be about par. However, you need to take into account that information was based upon the old testing procedures, not the new one. So, what used to be a testing procedure which truly favored "insiders" over "outsiders" no longer exists. It was rare for an "outsider" to even be aware of the testing back then. Hence, future hiring may differ completely or it may not. A lot of that depends upon the number of ALJs actually hired from the new Register being created.
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Post by futuressaalj on Nov 6, 2013 11:48:32 GMT -5
By far one of the best if not the best threads i have seen thanks epic
Lots of great points and perpectives
Agree with moopigdad's point. Previous register was full of insiders who were waiting to poiunce on application. Expect significantly more vets and outsiders on the register that will be published and therefore less insider hires.
Nothing magical or special about those who are in the running for Alj. For whatever reasons including vet points we competed better in a new testing process. Does not necc mean that the best attorneys are making the register. Just the best competitors in this process
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Post by Ace Midnight on Nov 6, 2013 12:15:34 GMT -5
Just as a time waster I decided to look back at each of the aljs I have known in my brief 4 years with odar. ... I dunno how these #s stack up to other crapland offices. Iimagine we have had a lot more turnover than others but it may be about par. Funky, it appears that our experiences have been extremely similar. We've had the occasional judge stuck waiting on transfer, but I don't think any got held up for more than 24 months - our transfers "in" tend to be hardships - to my knowledge, no one has ever transferred "in" to our office through normal channels - certainly not during my time - it is not an "end" destination. Also, as far as I know all of our current male judges are Vets, but only 1 who has passed through over the years was. I do not know if any of our female judges have been Vets. Our office almost always has a vacancy when hiring is done. In roughly 3 1/2 years, we've had something like 10-12 new judges hired here, often 2 and 3 at a time. I remain patiently and cautiously optimistic.
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Post by lildavey on Nov 6, 2013 12:30:52 GMT -5
Just as a time waster I decided to look back at each of the aljs I have known in my brief 4 years with odar. I thought the resultinginfo was intriguing. I offerit below merely as a thought exercise and not to restart any insider v outsider, vet v nonvet war of words. Background: Relatively small crapland office. We have seen many transfers away after relatively brief stints by newly hired aljs. The office is set up for and staffed for 10 aljs but due to a couple of transfers, one promotion to hocalj and transfer and one retirement we have functioned for most of the last year with 6 aljs. we received one of the recent new hires who is now at training. Thus we have 7 aljs on staff. Total aljs through the office during my tenure: As mentioned, I have been with the office for a little over 4 years. During that time span, 19 different aljs have been assigned to our office. This counts the 7 there now but does not count one that came to us for a set detail period and left thenafter. I worked with and got to at least superficially know each of the 19. Facts on the 19: Only 4 did not have agency experience prior to being selected as aljs. One was a former state alj, the other three outsiders had worked for other federal agencies. Only 3 were vets. 1 jag. 9 of the 19 had previously been senior attorneys. 1 successfully used ssa alj as a springboard to alj with a diff agency (the one she had worked for for years prior to joining ssa. she was with ssa for 2 years). Of the 12 that came through and didn't stay, 2 left for hocalj positions elsewhere, 2 left for an nhc and the rest all got home or closer to home. The longest I saw anyone wait for a transfer was 18 months and that was to a very popular city. We have had exactly one person transfer in to our office that wasn't originally from there. Other than the 19, our office has had one senior attorney and one supervisory attorney selected as aljs and sent elsewhere. I dunno how these #s stack up to other crapland offices. Iimagine we have had a lot more turnover than others but it may be about par. WOW, Funky! 19 judges in 4 years? I almost fell off my chair when I read that. Thanks!
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Post by funkyodar on Nov 6, 2013 13:00:47 GMT -5
Really. I'm in Crapland North, and we haven't had a new judge in three years. Wow. we have a core group of 5 judges that have been here since I was hired or very soon thereafter that are originally from the area or have ties here that are committed to staying. The other 5 slots have been musical chairs.
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Post by papresqr on Nov 6, 2013 13:07:26 GMT -5
I'm in one of those "desirable" locations - actually a desirable state in general. We were a new office that opened in 2010. Of our 11 original judges, 8 are still there, 2 have retired, and one transferred out. I know at least 2 were veterans, but not sure about the rest. Now I'm curious, so I'll have to find out.
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Post by eyre44 on Nov 6, 2013 13:09:23 GMT -5
Funky, it appears that our experiences have been extremely similar. We've had the occasional judge stuck waiting on transfer, but I don't think any got held up for more than 24 months - our transfers "in" tend to be hardships - to my knowledge, no one has ever transferred "in" to our office through normal channels - certainly not during my time - it is not an "end" destination My office, which is a "crapland" location, has four judges who have waited 24+ months for transfers. You really need to be sure you are willing to live in a location for a while if you put it on your GAL. Anywhere on the west coast, with one or two exceptions, is not likely to happen for awhile.
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Post by epic0ego on Nov 6, 2013 14:54:04 GMT -5
thanks futuressaalj. the idea was to take everyone else's incredible posts and ideas and put them in a central thread so that when NORs come out (fingers crossed), folks can try to make sense of the various options/strategies, as they see fit. Funky, as always, you excel. But did you say how many of those 19 judges started out as senior attorneys in your particular office?
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Post by christina on Nov 6, 2013 15:26:18 GMT -5
Funky, that's a lot of turnover. Are u running all those ALJ's off
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Post by funkyodar on Nov 6, 2013 15:29:20 GMT -5
thanks futuressaalj. the idea was to take everyone else's incredible posts and ideas and put them in a central thread so that when NORs come out (fingers crossed), folks can try to make sense of the various options/strategies, as they see fit. Funky, as always, you excel. But did you say how many of those 19 judges started out as senior attorneys in your particular office? Interesting question epic. Here is the breakdown on seniors in my office. Counting myself and my 2 current senior colleagues, there have been 10 seniors in my office since I started a little over 4 years ago. 3 were there when I came. 2 made alj soon after. Of those 2, neither were assigned to my office. one of them did transfer back, but a few mnoths later was promoted to hocalj in another office. she is included in my count of 19 judges through our office during my tenure. The 2 we lost were replaced by 1 internal promotion and 1 from a diff office. the one from another office was married to a senior that then hardshipped to us giving us 4 seniors. All 4 made alj over the next year. The married couple was split up and sent to two diff offices but ultimately were able to transfer back here together. Oddly, they didn't stay long (just over a year) and then went to an nhc. One of the 4 was assigned directly to us and after 18 months transferred to one of the popular places. The last of the four was assigned directly to us and has stayed. All of these 4 are therefore in the 19 count. Of the remaining 4, 1 left for a hod position. That leaves me and my 2 colleagues, of which I am the only one to get past phase 1 in the current testing. We also had one group supervisor attorney that took a hod position and then ultimately made alj in a diff office. As MPD stated earlier, the new process has def lessened the likelihood that insiders have much of an advantage. For that reason I don't put much stock in past practices or worry to much about how things were done. No worry but no comfort. There's no doubt that in my experience being a senior has almost been the golden ticket for alj. Wasnt always that way and doesn't appear to be so now. I didn't post these #s to incite any diatribes on insiders v outsiders or vet pref issues. In fact, these #s are probably very misleading under the current conditions. They show an obvious insider bias, relatively easy transfers and little vet pref impact. Under the new situation, the testing didn't favor insiders, transferring will be much more difficult, hiring will be drastically less and vets willmake up a larger section of the register. As usual, my timing sucks.
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