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Post by funkyodar on Aug 2, 2015 8:41:31 GMT -5
Now that is nostalgic.
Be careful tiger. I believe being less than nice is grounds for losing you newly acquired Canadian card.
EDIT NOTE BY PIXIE: Those are good words of advice, Funkster.
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Post by privateatty on Aug 2, 2015 8:59:05 GMT -5
If your heart is not in SSA you won't do a good job and won't be successful. I have been in front of Judge's who took the ODAR job, hated every minute of it, were hostile to claimants and attorneys and transferred to other agencies as soon as they could. Not only are you taking a job away from someone who wants it, you are potentially affecting claimants who have waited 1-3 years to have their case heard. If you are bitter on the bench because you chose poorly, everyone loses. While I've been in front of close to 100 different SSD ALJ's in my career, most are fair and pleasant. But the handful that are bitter, make this practice tough for all involved. Choose wisely. Unfortunately, the system is set up so that those who would be wonderful ALJs at other agencies but who might despise SSA work still have to go through SSA (or OMHA). So it is not reasonable to expect all ALJs to enjoy SSA work under the current system. There is no other path but through SSA to get those ALJs to where they need to be. And I would submit that no one who would be a great judge at some other agencies with completely different types of hearings and subject matter (e.g., ITC, FTC, etc.) would enjoy their time as an SSA judge. It's like forcing fish to flop around in the tree tops for a couple years before you let them back in the water. (Imagine if it were the other way around, and all of you with hearts set on being at ODAR were forced to spend 2-3 years trying ITC patent cases before going back to an ODAR office.) I disagree. The Judge is either professional or he/she is not. OPM chose them to be a Judge and administer the law under the APA not just for the SEC or Labor but for the Agency they are now in, namely ODAR. It doesn't matter if they are doing a full blown bench trial with 20 lawyers and a hundred motions that takes 4 months or is judging an unrepresented, unwashed Claimant at ODAR. Sounds to me you are describing the spoiled and petulant and not the Judge I aspire to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 10:03:39 GMT -5
EDIT NOTE BY PIXIE: This post by TL took offense at some of the statements made by Factfinder. At first I tried to edit out the most offensive portions, but decided the post should be deleted in its entirety as not in keeping with the board guidelines. Pixie. Pixie, at least I hope Factfinder had the opportunity to read my response to his backhanded compliments to ODAR ALJs, his opinion on lawyers, (as opposed to LAWYERS), my pathetic union and the CALJ and her minions. Maybe that wasn't his intent, but several of his comments came across that way to me, but I'm over it now.
I guess I am becoming a little too protective of ODAR, so I apologize for the extra editing work I caused you in my original response. I hope that everybody enjoys their Sunday! I am apparently going to float a very COLD river up here in Canada! IMHO tiger
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Post by phoenixrakkasan on Aug 2, 2015 10:12:41 GMT -5
Tiger, I would love to learn the reasons why you are so protective of ODAR. Such an insight would be illuminating for those of us who are considering service as an ALJ.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 10:19:40 GMT -5
Now that is nostalgic. Be careful tiger. I believe being less than nice is grounds for losing you newly acquired Canadian card. EDIT NOTE BY PIXIE: Those are good words of advice, Funkster. Well if they deport me back to Tupelo, do I get my old office back? I really miss the river view! tiger
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 11:36:00 GMT -5
Tiger, I would love to learn the reasons why you are so protective of ODAR. Such an insight would be illuminating for those of us who are considering service as an ALJ. Privateatty, funkyodar, papajudge, hilltopper and so many others have said it so much better than I can (see Pixie's comment above), but after 35 years of doing other type work such as dishwasher, warehouse worker, oil field roughneck, truck driver, boat operator, seafood deli worker, chain link fence installer, soldier, and criminal defense lawyer, I think I have a pretty good idea of what is and is not a good job. Being an ODAR ALJ is a great job.
It is time consuming and extremely tedious at times, but giving a person a fair and full hearing on their disability claim in an informal and non-adversarial hearing has great rewards. I enjoy about 90% of all my hearings even if it's a very weak claim of a 23 year old young man with no work history because I am probably one of the first and last Judges that they will ever appear in front of in their lives (hopefully). The claimants are in very bad shape, even if they are not disabled, and if you treat them with respect and kindness, it gives you a good feeling at the end of the day.
It is a lifetime appointment (with good behavior ) and after almost a year on the job, I can tell you that you have no "boss", our Union has given us a great contract (CBA) that controls almost 100% of your job outside of the hearing room and nobody tells me or any other ALJ (unless you let them) what to do inside the hearing room, as long as you are following the law. The Appeals Council can remand your case, but after almost 300 hearings, I am still at a 100% agreement rate (knock on wood) and when I do get remanded, FunkyOdar and my fellow friends in Tupelo get to fix my mistakes (gotta love transferring before the first wave of remands get to you ).
The Union needs new blood, but the CBA is their baby and it does protect you very well, if you read it, and make sure management knows that you know the contract terms. Management will send you emails about one thing or another, but my laptop has a delete button and it works very well on a daily basis or just ignore it and move it to an office admin email folder. If I get something that has nothing to do with my job as an ALJ, it's deleted after reading the first sentence, because you will be too busy to read the endless emails you get daily. If a case is too old (AGED), I had 100% nothing to do with the first 400-500 days of the case and I will move it as quickly as possible, but the fix for the problem is on the front end of the process, NOT my end, so I don't sweat it.
I have had two great HOCALJs (hearing office Chief ALJ) thus far and the staffs have been fantastic too. ODAR has 10,000 plus employees, and it is easy to take shots at the top brass, but as a soldier, I was in charge of 400 soldiers at one time, it's a hard job and it doesn't get easier the closer you get to 10,000. So far, I have been in several settings with all of the top brass and not once did I feel that anything they said was a criticism of me or my role as an ALJ. Now you could get a bad HOCALJ, staff, and grumpy fellow ALJs, but I don't think it is a widespread problem as some might suggest. You are really too busy to get bogged down in the day to day politics of any office. With telework, credit hours and leave after the first year, you could work it so that the only time you are even in the office during normal workdays/hours are your hearings days. You really do have the FREEDOM to work when you need to or want to, so long as you keep the assembly line moving! The chickens need de-boning and we are the de-boners. (I have to leave Funky an opportunity to comment in every long post.)
Finally, no employees to pay, no overhead EVER, no chasing clients to make overhead EVER, no grumpy Judges (that you have to deal with anyway), no prosecutors fresh out of law school and wearing a superman outfit under their suits, no stress unless you allow yourself to get stressed out over something and no adversarial Attorneys to deal with EVER. The pay is not too low at first (120K), but it climbs to a decent level in 3 years (150K). I will have a great retirement, if and when, I retire at 68 or so.
So, I hope that wasn't too long winded, but there is a reason why 6,000+ attorneys applied for this job and that is because it is one of the best Judicial position in federal service, IMHO, Tiger.
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Post by beenlurking on Aug 2, 2015 12:39:34 GMT -5
The eye of the Tiger!! You have echoed every thing I've heard from my friends who are ODAR ALJ's and from what i've seen with my own eyes!! Bravo!!!
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Post by westernalj on Aug 2, 2015 14:45:02 GMT -5
The only thing I would caution about as to Tiger's post is the great retirement comment. It's 1% per year worked generally. They do match up to 5% of your 401(k) [TSP]. I saw this only because many of my friends assume I'll have a significant percentage of my income in retirement. Since most ALJs are 45+, the pension portion won't support you.
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Post by luckylady2 on Aug 2, 2015 16:26:21 GMT -5
If you are FERS (which most are) - it counts on the pension and the savings account supplementing Social Security benefits. If you've had a prior federal life, you can piece together a retirement, not luxurious, but a retirement. But if you come in late without any prior retirement arrangements, the retirement benefits of this post won't make up for a lack of plans/savings in prior years.
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Post by beenlurking on Aug 2, 2015 16:39:33 GMT -5
Or, a prior military life without retirement that you can buy back at a very inexpensive rate which adds significant retirement value (i.e., years).
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Post by alj on Aug 2, 2015 16:40:34 GMT -5
The only thing I would caution about as to Tiger's post is the great retirement comment. It's 1% per year worked generally. They do match up to 5% of your 401(k) [TSP]. I saw this only because many of my friends assume I'll have a significant percentage of my income in retirement. Since most ALJs are 45+, the pension portion won't support you. I believe that with 20 years, the percentage is 1.1%. Not a big difference, but a difference. Your are right, however, as to the lack of a significant salary percentage in retirement. Fortunately, I had a retirement and a healthy 401(k) from a prior life.
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Post by funkyodar on Aug 2, 2015 16:46:16 GMT -5
Not picking a fight, because I actually agree the percentage of salary is low, but....as a fed you get a guaranteed pension and a 401k (tsp) where your employer matches up to 5%.
Having both is nearly unheard of in the private sector.
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Post by beenlurking on Aug 2, 2015 16:51:13 GMT -5
Not picking a fight, because I actually agree the percentage of salary is low, but....as a fed you get a guaranteed pension and a 401k (tsp) where your employer matches up to 5%. Having both is nearly unheard of in the private sector. Indeed.
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Post by phoenixrakkasan on Aug 2, 2015 16:59:19 GMT -5
Of course, the benefits are attractive, but the substantive parts of the job are key in deciding whether joining ODAR as an ALJ is the right choice. The personal reasons for seeking a public service appointment are not outcome determinative since they are personal. Tiger's points concerning feeling rewarding when conducting hearings is a very good insight into the position. However, the rest of his discussion deals with some of the fringe benefits of the job. Most competitive or excepted positions in the federal government provide you with these benefits. With respect to the lifetime appointment point, one would have such an appointment after completing the probationary period, which is one year (technically two for attorneys since that is when MSPB rights attach). I was expecting a post concerning the joy of dealing directly with the public, writing opinions, analyzing evidence, working in a collegial environment and making a difference. Maybe some other ALJs can share their joy in what they do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 18:30:43 GMT -5
phoenixrakkasan, sorry if I missed the mark, but I was focusing on the good parts of the job, but I did talk about the interaction with with claimants because that is a very rewarding part of the job, but you don't write your opinions at ODAR, you are too busy preparing case files for hearings, holding the hearings and then issuing the instructions to the writers who write the opinions.
This is where it starts to get a little more boring and tedious as mentioned above. When you are not in hearings, you will spend the vast majority of your time looking at three computer screens reviewing your share of the million plus cases that are backlogged at this time. I would say 85% or more of your non-hearing time would be doing just that if you are working a 500-700 docket. You work in isolation; it's the nature of the job. I have compared it to serving time in solidary confinment (but with a nicer jail cell), but you do have the key to the cell, so yard time is available whenever you want or need some human interaction.
I really enjoy the job and will continue to do it over the next 10 to 20 years depending on how I feel about it when I get in my late sixties. ODAR ALJs are appointed under the authority of the Administrative Procedures Act and there is no probationary period. You could be fired for breaking some laws trying to get the job, but if that's not the case, it's your job for life, upon good behavior. Hope that helps a little bit more. tiger
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Post by phoenixrakkasan on Aug 2, 2015 20:18:47 GMT -5
Thank you Tiger. No need to apologize. Fans of John Wayne may remind you that it is a sign of weakness. I liked this post much better since it addresses the substantive part of the jobs. While writers prepare a draft opinion, it is your opinion. The HALLEX requires you to use your wet signature or digital signature. Accordingly, you must own it. If there is a materiality issue, you better address it, event if the draft opinion does not. If there is a jurisdiction issue, you also better address it. Basically, it is your opinion and it needs to be defensible. I would find this part of the job very rewarding since I like to be engaged in analytical thinking and analysis. Nothing motivates me for some situational bourbon or martini than a day filled with analytical challenges. From my own understanding of the job, it would be an honor to join your ranks. You are lucky. Mellow down. I have completed all of the steps required. The hall is rented, the band engaged. It is time to know if I could dance.
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tpm
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Post by tpm on Aug 2, 2015 21:45:11 GMT -5
I haven't checked in for a few days and all I see is talk about turning down the job. Offers coming tomorrow is exciting news, but to have so many esteemed applicants already contemplating turning down the position... Well, I'd be a liar if I wouldn't admit I'm enthused... Heck, why contemplate, pull out now!
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Post by 71stretch on Aug 2, 2015 23:24:02 GMT -5
I haven't checked in for a few days and all I see is talk about turning down the job. Offers coming tomorrow is exciting news, but to have so many esteemed applicants already contemplating turning down the position... Well, I'd be a liar if I wouldn't admit I'm enthused... Heck, why contemplate, pull out now! I don't read this thread as indication that "so many" applicants are already contemplating turning down an appointment. The only one here who has taken themselves out of the loop is the one who started the thread if I recall correctly. But, anyone else who has made that decision should opt out sooner rather than later... Why ask references to tell ODAR how great you'd be at a job you don't want?
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Post by ba on Aug 3, 2015 6:03:19 GMT -5
I hate to be a stickler, but it keeps being repeated. The ALJ position is NOT "during good behavior" (aka for life) like an Art III judge. An ALJ can be removed for good "cause" after the agency meets its burden before the MSPB. Good cause can mean bad conduct, bad performance, or even just being RIF'd. The furlough case is an example. Art III judges can't be removed (or furloughed or anything else) except through impeachment. Actually, good behavior is a constitutional misnomer in practice. The general rule is that an A3 judge is only impeachable for high crimes and misdemeanors.
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Post by queenie262 on Aug 3, 2015 10:03:34 GMT -5
I haven't checked in for a few days and all I see is talk about turning down the job. Offers coming tomorrow is exciting news, but to have so many esteemed applicants already contemplating turning down the position... Well, I'd be a liar if I wouldn't admit I'm enthused... Heck, why contemplate, pull out now! tpm, why do you think offers are coming tomorrow (today)? Did somebody mention that possibility? Or by "tomorrow" do you mean "in the near future"?
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