|
|
Post by SPN Lifer on Sept 11, 2021 6:02:37 GMT -5
I'd heard the expression ring-knocker before, but had never witnessed or experienced it. Since we hadn't discussed anything about my qualifications for becoming a JAG, I started to chuckle at his pretentiousness. He did not think it funny. Suffice it to say I did not try to become a Navy JAG after that. So even though I'm an Airman - go Army, beat Navy! There are ring-knockers in all the services. Go Navy. Beat Army! Go Navy. Beat Air Force! (Today.) |
|
|
|
Post by SPN Lifer on Sept 11, 2021 21:14:10 GMT -5
Air Force: 23, Navy: 3
Congratulations, Zoomies.
|
|
|
|
Post by bartleby on Sept 13, 2021 16:24:14 GMT -5
Not to change the subject, But why is the immunity of those that have had Covid not discussed nor acceptable. Being a science guy, doesn't the saying that the vaccinated are afraid of getting Covid from the unvaccinated sound strange? Is Covid protection the whole purpose of the vaccine? Or is it?? If so, why doesn't the vaccine work well enough to protect the vaccinated? Can you see why I am confused here?
Hello Pixie, my old friend.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gaidin on Sept 13, 2021 16:47:49 GMT -5
Not to change the subject, But why is the immunity of those that have had Covid not discussed nor acceptable. Being a science guy, doesn't the saying that the vaccinated are afraid of getting Covid from the unvaccinated sound strange? Is Covid protection the whole purpose of the vaccine? Or is it?? If so, why doesn't the vaccine work well enough to protect the vaccinated? Can you see why I am confused here? Hello Pixie, my old friend. Because you can get the new variant of COVID just like you can get a different strain of the flu than you had last year. Additionally, your antibodies from having it don't necessarily protect your coworkers. Folks this isn't about you getting COVID and dying. It is about you getting your coworkers or the public sick and a bunch of people dying. |
|
|
|
Post by jimmy224 on Sept 13, 2021 17:11:31 GMT -5
Not to change the subject, But why is the immunity of those that have had Covid not discussed nor acceptable. Being a science guy, doesn't the saying that the vaccinated are afraid of getting Covid from the unvaccinated sound strange? Is Covid protection the whole purpose of the vaccine? Or is it?? If so, why doesn't the vaccine work well enough to protect the vaccinated? Can you see why I am confused here? Hello Pixie, my old friend. Because you can get the new variant of COVID just like you can get a different strain of the flu than you had last year. Additionally, your antibodies from having it don't necessarily protect your coworkers. Folks this isn't about you getting COVID and dying. It is about you getting your coworkers or the public sick and a bunch of people dying. I suspect pretty soon the two shots won’t be acceptable, and you need to get a booster. Might have to keep getting a new shot every six months or so as condition of employment. I got a haircut today, and I gave my vaccine card so they could put it in system. Might be similar with access to federal property-you will need to show proof of vaccine to enter federal property. |
|
|
|
Post by bartleby on Sept 13, 2021 17:16:32 GMT -5
Something isn't making sense here. Science no longer rules? Maybe the Earth is flat? If the vaccine works, how can vaccinated people get sick from Covid? Are there different tests for different variants? I have not been able to confirm this? If your proposition is correct, and we have many variants of Covid, won't we have many vaccinations? Why were the doctors accepting blood for harvesting from only those with naturally acquired immunity and not from those that had acquired immunity from the vaccine? There has been no long term testing to confirm or deny possible side-effects. Further, the death rate has plunged even though the rate of infections has gone up. There are many valid reasons for those that don't want to get vaccinated. One of them is the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gaidin on Sept 13, 2021 18:38:51 GMT -5
Something isn't making sense here. Science no longer rules? Maybe the Earth is flat? If the vaccine works, how can vaccinated people get sick from Covid? Are there different tests for different variants? I have not been able to confirm this? If your proposition is correct, and we have many variants of Covid, won't we have many vaccinations? Why were the doctors accepting blood for harvesting from only those with naturally acquired immunity and not from those that had acquired immunity from the vaccine? There has been no long term testing to confirm or deny possible side-effects. Further, the death rate has plunged even though the rate of infections has gone up. There are many valid reasons for those that don't want to get vaccinated. One of them is the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. Bart I'm not going to debate you because I don't think you really want answers. You want to play "I'm just asking questions." But.... 1. The Tuskegee Experiment was about denying care not providing care; 2. The reason you get a flu vaccine every year is because the flu virus mutates constantly and the scientists are doing their best to guess which mutation will be most prevalent; and 3. No vaccine is perfect it takes a long time to vaccinate a disease out of existence because there can be break through cases. |
|
|
|
Post by lurkerbelow on Sept 13, 2021 20:49:10 GMT -5
Yes, we have entered a world where believing in science and the greater good of mankind is, at least in part, a political statement. Since we are sharing opinions, here's mine  . |
|
|
|
Post by Pixie on Sept 13, 2021 23:11:29 GMT -5
Not to change the subject, But why is the immunity of those that have had Covid not discussed nor acceptable. Being a science guy, doesn't the saying that the vaccinated are afraid of getting Covid from the unvaccinated sound strange? Is Covid protection the whole purpose of the vaccine? Or is it?? If so, why doesn't the vaccine work well enough to protect the vaccinated? Can you see why I am confused here? Hello Pixie, my old friend. And hello to you. It has been a few years. Hope your kitties are all doing well. Pixie |
|
|
|
Post by tripper on Sept 14, 2021 6:38:34 GMT -5
Something isn't making sense here. Science no longer rules? Maybe the Earth is flat? If the vaccine works, how can vaccinated people get sick from Covid? Are there different tests for different variants? I have not been able to confirm this? If your proposition is correct, and we have many variants of Covid, won't we have many vaccinations? Why were the doctors accepting blood for harvesting from only those with naturally acquired immunity and not from those that had acquired immunity from the vaccine? There has been no long term testing to confirm or deny possible side-effects. Further, the death rate has plunged even though the rate of infections has gone up. There are many valid reasons for those that don't want to get vaccinated. One of them is the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. I am vaccinated. I am not worried about getting very sick or dying. I am very concerned about transmitting the virus to my three-year-old grandson. That’s one reason why vaccinated people still have an interest in this matter. |
|
|
|
Post by justone on Sept 14, 2021 8:45:35 GMT -5
I’m going to break my no-posting rule this one time because these last few posts were too much for me. The question Bartleby posed was how vaccinating an unvaccinated individual protects an already vaccinated individual. It doesn’t.
The mRNA vaccines are biologics, and the “formulations” have not changed since they were initially developed. As a result, vaccinating an individual with the current vaccines will not immunize that person against a Covid variant to which a previously vaccinated individual is susceptible. In short, if you are susceptible to a particular strain, vaccinating others will not prevent them from contracting that strain and potentially infecting you. And if you are not susceptible to a particular strain by virtue of having been vaccinated, you cannot “catch” that strain from an unvaccinated person. But to respond to your points individually…
“Because you can get the new variant of COVID just like you can get a different strain of the flu than you had last year.”
Exactly. But you do not appreciate your answer’s implication, so it bears repeating. Vaccinating an individual with the current vaccines will not immunize the newly vaccinated person against a Covid variant to which an already vaccinated individual is susceptible. A newly vaccinated person is less likely to become seriously ill or die from Delta, but the current vaccines will not prevent him from contracting Delta and potentially infecting other vaccinated individuals.
"Additionally, your antibodies from having it don't necessarily protect your coworkers.
I don’t know what you are referring to. I can’t imagine anyone would imply the serum antibodies of one individual can somehow confer protection on another absent the use of convalescent plasma, and I did not understand Bartleby's responses to suggest as much.
"Folks this isn't about you getting COVID and dying."
Actually, it is. The risk/benefit analysis weighs heavily in favor of vaccinating those with significant co-morbidities. But with Covid’s IFR for healthy individuals approaching that of the seasonal flu, the analysis is very different for healthier cohorts.
"It is about you getting your coworkers or the public sick and a bunch of people dying."
Actually, it isn’t. Again, because a newly vaccinated individual is susceptible to the same variants any other vaccinated individual is susceptible to, getting vaccinated (at least with the current versions of the vaccines) will not contribute to herd immunity. You might want to read up on what Director Walensky said about vaccine efficacy at preventing infection.
“Bart I'm not going to debate you because I don't think you really want answers. You want to play ‘I'm just asking questions.’”
You won’t (can’t) answer Bartleby’s questions, so you pivot from his questions to his person and impugn his sincerity. That is uncharitable and unbecoming.
“The Tuskegee Experiment was about denying care not providing care”
Wrong. The Tuskegee experiment was about deliberately using human beings as experimental subjects and the government’s willingness to lie to, and affirmatively harm, its citizens and their families by denying them the most basic of human rights—the right to informed consent and bodily integrity.
“The reason you get a flu vaccine every year is because the flu virus mutates constantly and the scientists are doing their best to guess which mutation will be most prevalent”
Correct. That is why last year’s vaccine for the Alpha variant won’t protect you, or anyone else who gets vaccinated, from contracting the Delta variant. Again, the vaccines reduce disease severity and mortality rates (another fact that militates in favor of getting vaccinated) but that is not at issue in this exchange.
“No vaccine is perfect it takes a long time to vaccinate a disease out of existence because there can be break through cases.”
Not sure what your reference points are. Smallpox is the only disease eradicated by a vaccine (we are close with Polio). Covid will not be the next one.
Since you have evidently given the matter some thought, I wonder if any of the following gave you pause before endorsing compulsory vaccination:
Pfizer was granted final approval for its vaccine (which it referred to as an “experimental gene therapy” in its regulatory filings with the SEC) despite the fact its safety and efficacy studies will not be completed until 2023 (you can review the 60 plus Pfizer trials at clinicaltrials.gov and the SEC filing is in the public domain).
The FDA’s August 23, 2021, BLA approval letter to Pfizer indicates they were unable to “assess known serious risks of myocarditis and pericarditis and identify an unexpected serious risk of subclinical myocarditis.” (the letter is also available in the public domain).
There is no (ZERO) long-term safety and efficacy data on the Moderna, Pfizer and J&J vaccines (or, for that matter, any mRNA vaccine). The vaccines, except for Pfizer’s, are being administered under an EUA which requires the FDA to conclude “[t]he known and potential benefits of the product, when used to diagnose, prevent, or treat the identified serious or life-threatening disease or condition, outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.” It is impossible to assess long-term risks until the data has time to accrue.
Given the foregoing, I will ask just one question. Why would the FDA grant FINAL approval without waiting for safety and efficacy data when all three vaccines were being administered under an EUA and anyone who wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated?
I am not going to debate you because this is my last post. But no one, and no community, is well-served if its members don’t meaningfully educate themselves, cavalierly dismiss the concerns of the concerned, and fail to ascribe to those with whom they disagree the virtues and motives they ascribe to themselves.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ace Midnight on Sept 14, 2021 15:20:09 GMT -5
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
|
|
|
|
Post by FrogEsq on Sept 14, 2021 15:38:50 GMT -5
So, no Whopper?
|
|
|
|
Post by Thomas fka Lance on Sept 14, 2021 17:15:20 GMT -5
Funniest thing I've seen in a while; thanks for the laugh, I needed that |
|
|
|
Post by Gaidin on Sept 15, 2021 10:14:08 GMT -5
Because the vaccine works and in the literally millions of doses administered the likelihood of complications is miniscule compared to the complications known to happen to people who get COVID. You can listen to some guy with one post on an anonymous internet forum who didn't cite you to a single piece of information or you can listen the overwhelming majority of scientists working for the world's public health entities. When I said it's not about any one person dying I meant it. I personally know two people who had to wait in the emergency room at two different local hospitals for over 72 hours waiting to be admitted because the hospitals were flooded with COVID patients. I don't live in a state with the horror stories I see in other states but it is still real everywhere. People are being hurt by others refusal to get a vaccine that more than half the country has gotten. www.propublica.org/article/a-boy-went-to-a-covid-swamped-er-he-waited-for-hours-then-his-appendix-burst |
|
|
|
Post by Gaidin on Sept 15, 2021 10:16:01 GMT -5
Funniest thing I've seen in a while; thanks for the laugh, I needed that Ace is a gem. |
|
sta
Full Member
Posts: 82
|
Post by sta on Sept 15, 2021 14:39:54 GMT -5
Well if you are required to get vaccinated, your initial decision is do you want Moderna or Pfizer: The following article would appear to suggest Moderna is more protective, based on study of 1647 people who are health care workers in Belgium: observer.com/2021/08/moderna-covid-vaccine-twice-antibody-pfizer-biontech-study/ "Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine generates more than twice as many antibodies as a similar shot made by Pfizer and BioNTech, according to a new real-world study from a major Belgium hospital system. The research, published Monday as a letter in the Journal of the American Medical Association, suggests that antibody levels among people who hadn’t been infected with COVID-19 before receiving two doses of the Moderna vaccine averaged 2,881 units per milliliter, compared with 1,108 units per milliliter in a similar-sized group who got the Pfizer-BioNTech shot. A total of 1,647 people participated in the study. A group of 688 people were vaccinated with Moderna’s mRNA-1273 shots, while 959 received two shots of Pfizer’s BNT162b2. All of them are health care workers at the Ziekenhuis Oost-Limburg in Belgium, a tertiary care center. The notable difference in antibody levels might be explained by a higher amount of mRNA content in the Moderna vaccine and the longer interval between doses, according to the study. Each Moderna dose contains 100 micrograms of active mRNA ingredient, while the Pfizer-BioNTech shot contains only 30 micrograms of similar content. The Moderna injections were administered four weeks apart, compared with three weeks for Pfizer-BioNTech. A higher antibody level suggests that Moderna’s vaccine is more protective against breakthrough infections, or infections in people who have been fully inoculated. The Moderna shots also appear to be more effective than Pfizer at blocking mutations of the coronavirus, such as the delta variant. A separate U.S. study released earlier this month found that Moderna’s overall effectiveness against COVID-19 dropped only slightly to 76 percent in July from the 86 percent recorded in January 2021 before the delta variant emerged, while Pfizer’s overall efficacy fell from 76 percent to 42 percent over the same period." But my question isn't it possible that the Moderna vaccine has more side effects based on it's greater potency? |
|
|
|
Post by roymcavoy on Sept 15, 2021 15:00:46 GMT -5
But my question isn't it possible that the Moderna vaccine has more side effects based on it's greater potency? Life is the greatest side effect. |
|
|
|
Post by nylawyer on Sept 15, 2021 17:50:47 GMT -5
I think it's interesting if you can actually get a choice as to which vaccine.
There was no menu back when I was vaccinated, everyone got the chef's special. (In my case Moderna, everyone else in my family ended up with Pfizer).
|
|
|
|
Post by christina on Sept 15, 2021 18:12:55 GMT -5
Well if you are required to get vaccinated, your initial decision is do you want Moderna or Pfizer: The following article would appear to suggest Moderna is more protective, based on study of 1647 people who are health care workers in Belgium: observer.com/2021/08/moderna-covid-vaccine-twice-antibody-pfizer-biontech-study/ "Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine generates more than twice as many antibodies as a similar shot made by Pfizer and BioNTech, according to a new real-world study from a major Belgium hospital system. The research, published Monday as a letter in the Journal of the American Medical Association, suggests that antibody levels among people who hadn’t been infected with COVID-19 before receiving two doses of the Moderna vaccine averaged 2,881 units per milliliter, compared with 1,108 units per milliliter in a similar-sized group who got the Pfizer-BioNTech shot. A total of 1,647 people participated in the study. A group of 688 people were vaccinated with Moderna’s mRNA-1273 shots, while 959 received two shots of Pfizer’s BNT162b2. All of them are health care workers at the Ziekenhuis Oost-Limburg in Belgium, a tertiary care center. The notable difference in antibody levels might be explained by a higher amount of mRNA content in the Moderna vaccine and the longer interval between doses, according to the study. Each Moderna dose contains 100 micrograms of active mRNA ingredient, while the Pfizer-BioNTech shot contains only 30 micrograms of similar content. The Moderna injections were administered four weeks apart, compared with three weeks for Pfizer-BioNTech. A higher antibody level suggests that Moderna’s vaccine is more protective against breakthrough infections, or infections in people who have been fully inoculated. The Moderna shots also appear to be more effective than Pfizer at blocking mutations of the coronavirus, such as the delta variant. A separate U.S. study released earlier this month found that Moderna’s overall effectiveness against COVID-19 dropped only slightly to 76 percent in July from the 86 percent recorded in January 2021 before the delta variant emerged, while Pfizer’s overall efficacy fell from 76 percent to 42 percent over the same period." But my question isn't it possible that the Moderna vaccine has more side effects based on it's greater potency? From what I can gather, the percentage of people developing alarming adverse effects are higher from Pfizer than Moderna. No guarantee what I’m saying is accurate. It’s just my best take from reading a variety of medical study summaries. It also seems like despite more people developing alarming side effects than I like to see, the overall risks of alarming adverse reactions are still very low. |
|
