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Post by someconcerns on Sept 16, 2021 19:05:29 GMT -5
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Post by justone on Sept 18, 2021 8:45:22 GMT -5
Because the vaccine works and in the literally millions of doses administered the likelihood of complications is miniscule compared to the complications known to happen to people who get COVID. You can listen to some guy with one post on an anonymous internet forum who didn't cite you to a single piece of information or you can listen the overwhelming majority of scientists working for the world's public health entities. When I said it's not about any one person dying I meant it. I personally know two people who had to wait in the emergency room at two different local hospitals for over 72 hours waiting to be admitted because the hospitals were flooded with COVID patients. I don't live in a state with the horror stories I see in other states but it is still real everywhere. People are being hurt by others refusal to get a vaccine that more than half the country has gotten. www.propublica.org/article/a-boy-went-to-a-covid-swamped-er-he-waited-for-hours-then-his-appendix-burst(sigh) If A, …. One of the most profitable lessons I learned was offered by my first semester psychology professor; patterns of behavior tend to repeat themselves. Our behavioral dynamics—what we do—we tend to do over and over again. Bartleby posed some questions you should have assumed were offered in good faith. You did not engage him on the merits, but instead pivoted from his questions to his person and questioned his sincerity. I offered numerous observations, some self-evident and others I indicated could be confirmed by accessing publicly available information. You did not address any of them and could not be bothered to check their accuracy. Instead, you derisively dismissed me as “some guy with one post [very SSAish of you to conflate quality with quantity] on an anonymous internet forum….” Patterns of behavior, indeed! More to the point, you complained that “some guy” did not cite to any sources. The tacit implication being that “some guy” was trafficking in misinformation (the document Top Tier linked to offers a nightmarish glimpse into a neo-Orwellian future we are, incredibly, hoping for). So here are links to every assertion “some guy” offered: 1. Some Guy: “In short, if you are susceptible to a particular strain, vaccinating others will not prevent them from contracting that strain and potentially infecting you.” Gaiden: Get vaccinated so you won’t infect others (“People are getting hurt by others refusal to get a vaccine that more than half the country has gotten” and “It is about you getting your coworkers or the public sick and a bunch of people dying.”) CDC Director Walensky: "Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," she said. "They continue to work well with delta with regard to severe illness and death, "but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission." [/b]https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html# 2. Some Guy: “But with Covid’s IFR for healthy individuals approaching that of the seasonal flu…” Seasonal Flu IFR (they differ every season but typically averages .01%): www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.htmlCovid IFRs by age bracket as of March 2021 (Table 5). The IFRs range from .002% for ages 0-17 (the flu has killed more children than Covid in ten of the past 11 seasons—a separate link you’ll have to google), .05% for ages 18-49, and up to 9% for those 65 and older. The numbers are almost certainly even lower now. For the curious the median age of death is 72 (that was from an older study I read some time ago and the number may have dropped since then): www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html3. Pfizer approval letter: www.fda.gov/media/151710/download4. Link to Pfizer’s trials. Here is a link to one of the earliest trials: clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/nct04368728And here is a link to all of them (perusing them is a wonderful sleep aid): clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=Covid19&term=BNT162b2+&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=5. Moderna SEC filing: I need to apologize for this. I confused Pfizer and Moderna’s filings and should not have included “experimental” in the quote. But both deliver mRNA encased in a phospholipid membrane, and both instruct your cells to manufacture the spike protein. Because the FDA characterizes Moderna’s vaccine as a “gene therapy,” Pfizer’s is one as well. Scroll to page 70. www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1682852/000168285220000017/mrna-20200630.htm6. I can’t link to any studies assessing long-term risks because there aren’t any; the data has not had time to accrue. But don’t take my word for it, look at the calendar (or the FDA’s approval letter). 7. Safety/efficacy/therapeutic standards for issuing EUAs: www.fda.gov/media/97321/downloadPretty sure that covers every claim “some guy” was charged with manufacturing. If you read my first post carefully you would have realized I never argued for or against getting vaccinated. Indeed, I intimated getting vaccinated was a good idea for those with co-morbidities. The point I made was that there are objective bases for some of the concerns many have expressed and that you were wrong to summarily dismiss them. The evidence to date indicates the vaccines work exceptionally well as therapeutics. I made that point, too, more than once, and I think anyone who wants to get vaccinated should. But as Director Walensky said, and I explained, “what they can’t do anymore is prevent transmission.” But why trouble with the message when you can dispatch the messenger? Your response was emblematic of what now passes for discourse when there is disagreement. Coarse and corrosive, today’s MO is not to engage but dismiss, and illiberal in character, its goal is not to reconcile but compel. Preferably in 280 characters or less. So, we are left with “another guy” on an anonymous internet forum who offers opinions drawn from wells of vincible ignorance who discredits the concerned who presume to question his claims. I know, I know, this is a Wendy’s (touche!), and I have finished my coffee, so enough tilting at windmills for a Saturday morning. |
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sta
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Posts: 82
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Post by sta on Sept 18, 2021 18:51:43 GMT -5
The dispute between Bartleby and Gaidin arose, when Bartleby asked several questions, and made the statement that there are many valid reasons for those that don't want to get vaccinated to prevent covid-19. Bartleby referred to the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, but did not explain why the improper state action taken there is factually related to the detailed science protocols followed by the Food and Drug Administration that must be satisfied before a vaccine is approved for use by the general public.
Justone then stated the questions posed by Bartleby should be assumed to have been offered in good faith, and that Gaiden should have engaged him on the merits. Justone cited to CDC Director Walensky statements that our vaccines "are working exceptionally well" and continues to "work well with Delta with regard to severe illness and death," "but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission." Based on the last quoted statement by Walensky, Justone states it was wrong for Gaiden to dismiss Bartleby's concerns as there are objective bases for some of the concerns raised by Bartleby.
Nevertheless, the underlying fundamental question is what exactly is a valid reason for not taking the current Pfizer and Moderna vaccines? The fact the vaccine cannot "prevent transmission" is immaterial, since the fundamental reason for taking the vaccine is to prevent the person getting vaccinated from getting severe disease or dying after being exposed to an infected person. This is not a selfish act against another person.
To stop covid, you need herd immunity, which occurs when a large portion of the community becomes immune either from natural infection or vaccines. Dr. Gottlieb, on the board of Pfizer, has recently opined that due to the more contagious Delta variant, it will require 85% of the population to get vaccinated or to have natural infection to achieve herd immunity. It goes without saying if a Washington Post July 15, 2021 poll is correct in finding that 29 percent of Americans are unlikely to get vaccinated where 20 percent stated they definitely will not, then covid19 will continue thriving indefinitely.
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Post by roymcavoy on Sept 19, 2021 0:05:40 GMT -5
The dispute between Bartleby and Gaidin arose, when Bartleby asked several questions, and made the statement that there are many valid reasons for those that don't want to get vaccinated to prevent covid-19. Bartleby referred to the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, but did not explain why the improper state action taken there is factually related to the detailed science protocols followed by the Food and Drug Administration that must be satisfied before a vaccine is approved for use by the general public. Justone then stated the questions posed by Bartleby should be assumed to have been offered in good faith, and that Gaiden should have engaged him on the merits. Justone cited to CDC Director Walensky statements that our vaccines "are working exceptionally well" and continues to "work well with Delta with regard to severe illness and death," "but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission." Based on the last quoted statement by Walensky, Justone states it was wrong for Gaiden to dismiss Bartleby's concerns as there are objective bases for some of the concerns raised by Bartleby. Nevertheless, the underlying fundamental question is what exactly is a valid reason for not taking the current Pfizer and Moderna vaccines? The fact the vaccine cannot "prevent transmission" is immaterial, since the fundamental reason for taking the vaccine is to prevent the person getting vaccinated from getting severe disease or dying after being exposed to an infected person. This is not a selfish act against another person. To stop covid, you need herd immunity, which occurs when a large portion of the community becomes immune either from natural infection or vaccines. Dr. Gottlieb, on the board of Pfizer, has recently opined that due to the more contagious Delta variant, it will require 85% of the population to get vaccinated or to have natural infection to achieve herd immunity. It goes without saying if a Washington Post July 15, 2021 poll is correct in finding that 29 percent of Americans are unlikely to get vaccinated where 20 percent stated they definitely will not, then covid19 will continue thriving indefinitely. and mutating, which is the long-game problem. |
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Post by hopefalj on Sept 19, 2021 19:49:52 GMT -5
“The fact the vaccine cannot ‘prevent transmission’ is immaterial, since the fundamental reason for taking the vaccine is to prevent the person getting vaccinated from getting severe disease or dying after being exposed to an infected person. This is not a selfish act against another person.”
… with the exception of exhausting our healthcare workers by having to take care of the unvaccinated or if the hospitals get crowded to the point that other people can’t get treatment for injuries or illnesses (including elective procedures) because the severely sick are monopolizing those resources. Then one might consider it to be a pretty selfish act against other people.
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Post by phoenixrisingALJ on Sept 19, 2021 20:15:47 GMT -5
1) social média posts seldom change opinions.
2) repeat above point until it sinks in
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Post by nylawyer on Sept 19, 2021 20:22:12 GMT -5
1) social média posts seldom change opinions. I used to think they frequently did change opinions, but having read this I am now convinced they do not. |
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Post by recoveringalj on Sept 19, 2021 23:54:28 GMT -5
Perhaps because they would like to know a bed/medical staff will be available if they or a loved one has a heart attack, car accident, etc.?They might want to avoid having their kids’ schools shut down? Maybe they want to feel confident that our military, fire departments, and police departments, and other public servants are available to do their jobs? Or maybe it they don’t want to have to pay for someone else’s mistake? Maybe they understand that vaccination is the only way out of this pandemic.
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Post by nylawyer on Sept 20, 2021 7:19:10 GMT -5
You know what are great topics for a professional, collegial forum?
Politics and religion.
Let's talk about something else.
Who make better ALJs- insiders or outsiders?
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Post by Prrple on Sept 20, 2021 8:47:32 GMT -5
Sometimes the numbers are hard to grok. The Joint Commission (yes, that one) has created this PowerPoint presentation to illustrate the numbers. It is dated August 30, 2021. Call out text: "People often have a hard time grappling with large numbers. This exercise is intended to put COVID numbers into a more familiar (and hopefully meaningful) context." It opens as a PDF.
They also provide this page as additional context. This page explains that the presentation, "were assembled to help explain the risks of COVID-19, relative to other events such as shark attacks, lightning strikes, tornadoes, drowning and traffic fatalities, and to illustrate the impact that COVID-19 vaccinations have on reducing risks."
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Post by ok1956 on Sept 20, 2021 9:03:01 GMT -5
You know what are great topics for a professional, collegial forum? Politics and religion. Let's talk about something else. Who make better ALJs- insiders or outsiders? Now THIS made me laugh! Perfect for a Monday morning. |
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Post by neufenland on Sept 20, 2021 17:14:46 GMT -5
Perhaps because they would like to know a bed/medical staff will be available if they or a loved one has a heart attack, car accident, etc.?They might want to avoid having their kids’ schools shut down? Maybe they want to feel confident that our military, fire departments, and police departments, and other public servants are available to do their jobs? Or maybe it they don’t want to have to pay for someone else’s mistake? Maybe they understand that vaccination is the only way out of this pandemic. If they are all vaccinated they supposedly can do all those things irrespective of whether others are vaccinated or immune by natural immunity. And you did not answer my question, is man-made immunity better than God's? Should we all serve a man over God? (Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego come to mind; Daniel 3:16-28). "“Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us from Your Majesty’s hand. But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” Nebuchadnezzar then approached the opening of the blazing furnace and shouted, “Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out! Come here!” So Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego came out of the fire, and the satraps, prefects, governors and royal advisers crowded around them. They saw that the fire had not harmed their bodies, nor was a hair of their heads singed; their robes were not scorched, and there was no smell of fire on them. Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God.” Daniel 3:16-28 NIV bible.com/bible/111/dan.3.16-28.NIVI thought we had established that this is a Wendy's... |
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Post by nylawyer on Sept 20, 2021 20:27:34 GMT -5
There is a Chick-fil-a joke to be had there, but I'm too tired to get the phrasing right.
But it would have been really funny.
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Post by hopefalj on Sept 20, 2021 20:35:29 GMT -5
There is a Chick-fil-a joke to be had there, but I'm too tired to get the phrasing right. But it would have been really funny. Maybe it’ll come to you on Sunday. |
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Post by fowlfinder on Sept 20, 2021 21:25:53 GMT -5
There is a Chick-fil-a joke to be had there, but I'm too tired to get the phrasing right. But it would have been really funny. When I came home from the office today our backyard chickens told me to eat more cows. The fact that I actually heard them either meant that I was at the office too long, or I have already eaten too many cows and I've gone a bit mad. |
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Post by recoveringalj on Sept 20, 2021 22:25:00 GMT -5
There is a Chick-fil-a joke to be had there, but I'm too tired to get the phrasing right. But it would have been really funny. Stolen from the internet: I saw a bunch of old people protesting outside of Chick-fil-A... They were raising canes. |
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Post by FrogEsq on Sept 21, 2021 7:51:58 GMT -5
There is a Chick-fil-a joke to be had there, but I'm too tired to get the phrasing right. But it would have been really funny. Maybe it’ll come to you on Sunday. Sundays are the only day I crave Chick-fil-a |
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Post by nylawyer on Sept 21, 2021 9:28:12 GMT -5
That's because it is the only day the drive through line isn't backed up all the way to the interstate
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Post by Gaidin on Sept 24, 2021 15:59:53 GMT -5
Maybe it’ll come to you on Sunday. Sundays are the only day I crave Chick-fil-a Amen |
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Post by roggenbier on Sept 27, 2021 5:38:19 GMT -5
When a man wore a younger man’s face (this man, not Billy Joel first penned this prose), he remembers taking an “experimental” vaccine on a sugar cube and it tasted good at school. A man does not understand why so many people are afraid of needles instead of sugar cubes. Wearing another face, a man saw people lined up and sent off to war after needles were put in their arms. When he took on other faces in other places, a man remembers more needles and jabs. A man knows the will of God in the Temple of Black and White are to give mercy to the needleless. So says a man.
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