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Post by trp888 on Apr 11, 2023 6:04:15 GMT -5
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Post by hillsarealive on Apr 11, 2023 8:42:19 GMT -5
Do you think the staffing issues won’t impact ALJ’s? Or is it that you think the ALJ position/pay will make whatever work related stresses (turnover / understaffing of decision writers and other integral support staff) easier to tolerate? What about micromanagement to produce dispositions ? Is there a breaking point even for ALJ’s? I too read this article and have been following the thread related to ALJ duties and am curious if there is a trend of SSA ALJ’s hanging up their robes due to factors cited in that article. SSA is a big organization, and while many components could use more staffing, some components are worse off than others. I have heard from many people in SSA's field offices and regional offices that these offices are severely understaffed. Lots of retirements over the past 10-12 years, without enough hiring. I think his sort of article is mostly discussing that sort of worker, e.g., public-facing operations types. It is like the joke about the blind men and the elephant--what one knows about the agency depends on one's vantage point. I don't know about OHO, but others on this board are well qualified to offer insights. OGC seems to be doing okay in terms of staffing, but that's my impression. I understand they are hiring here and there as needed. |
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Post by roymcavoy on Apr 11, 2023 10:09:26 GMT -5
I think it’s “everything.”
Prior to Covid, the prior admin was taking steps to vastly reduce telework for OHO. That was on the heels of increased workloads in an attempt to reduce/eliminate the backlog—which the agency then argued against as evidence of telework production.
Over the past few years, there has been a concerted effort by management to try and improve employee morale—I guess this article shows it has not helped. I’d also bet a straw poll shows that more ALJs than you think are unhappy with their jobs.
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Post by seaprongs on Apr 11, 2023 10:17:55 GMT -5
Do you think the staffing issues won’t impact ALJ’s? Or is it that you think the ALJ position/pay will make whatever work related stresses (turnover / understaffing of decision writers and other integral support staff) easier to tolerate? What about micromanagement to produce dispositions ? Is there a breaking point even for ALJ’s? I too read this article and have been following the thread related to ALJ duties and am curious if there is a trend of SSA ALJ’s hanging up their robes due to factors cited in that article. SSA is a big organization, and while many components could use more staffing, some components are worse off than others. I have heard from many people in SSA's field offices and regional offices that these offices are severely understaffed. Lots of retirements over the past 10-12 years, without enough hiring. I think his sort of article is mostly discussing that sort of worker, e.g., public-facing operations types. It is like the joke about the blind men and the elephant--what one knows about the agency depends on one's vantage point. I don't know about OHO, but others on this board are well qualified to offer insights. OGC seems to be doing okay in terms of staffing, but that's my impression. I understand they are hiring here and there as needed. Yes, the field offices are definitely short on people, and they have been for a long time. For years now, they have closed to the public on Wednesday afternoons just to catch up on paperwork. It's also a long wait to get an answer on the 1-800 number. The problems at DDS are well documented (although SSA has less direct influence on what specific states do with pay, benefits, etc. since many are state employees). As for OHO, I have seen many support staff leave government, especially since covid. I have not seen many attorneys leave SSA, but I predict a fair amount will leave within the next year or two. The PSLF and IDR waivers are slowly starting to hit student loan accounts, so attorneys who didn't have the right payment plan or the right type of loan for PSLF when they initially started working for the government are seeing those loan balances fall to $0 after hitting 120 payments earlier than anticipated. It's something that comes up fairly often when I talk to attorneys about the lack of promotional opportunity within OHO. More people will be willing to take a lateral move or even a pay cut to leave SSA for a different career path if they know they're not going to be on the hook for $500+ per month going forward. It opens up the possibilty of private sector employment for some who were holding out for PSLF relief. Now, I don't know if the agency really cares about turnover at the attorney position. I graduated during an economic downturn when people would have done cartwheels if they landed any fed job, so maybe it's just as easy to scoop up replacement cogs at GS-11. I don't know what the market is like for recent grads and early career attorneys these days. Maximizing telework, offering remote positions, and/or outstationing jobs is going to be key to retaining talent, and it costs OHO next to nothing. The flexibility of the job is still a major benefit, especially if you have kids. The field offices are a tougher issue because the job requires in person customer services, but very few OHO jobs require you to be in person on a regular basis if at all. The flexibility of the work is a powerful retention tool. |
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Post by manunited77 on Apr 11, 2023 11:31:55 GMT -5
I have seriously considered it. I've been here almost 15 years. I don't see any advancement opportunities within OHO that doesn't involve climbing the management tree.
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Post by jagvet on Apr 11, 2023 12:00:46 GMT -5
The article was full of misleading anecdotes and pure falsehoods. 8% of employees know of a suicide caused "at least in part" by overwork? Come on. This would only be true if someone like the commissioner did herself in. I have a direct field office experience which was frustrated by lack of employees being physically in the office. The reports of SSA's "pending crackup" due to understaffing and low pay have been exaggerated for at least 20 years. Some offices may have minor shortages, but how about dismissing some no-shows to reduce workloads? OCALJ could do that with one memo. |
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Post by trp888 on Apr 11, 2023 12:51:06 GMT -5
SSA is a big organization, and while many components could use more staffing, some components are worse off than others. I have heard from many people in SSA's field offices and regional offices that these offices are severely understaffed. Lots of retirements over the past 10-12 years, without enough hiring. I think his sort of article is mostly discussing that sort of worker, e.g., public-facing operations types. It is like the joke about the blind men and the elephant--what one knows about the agency depends on one's vantage point. I don't know about OHO, but others on this board are well qualified to offer insights. OGC seems to be doing okay in terms of staffing, but that's my impression. I understand they are hiring here and there as needed. Yes, the field offices are definitely short on people, and they have been for a long time. For years now, they have closed to the public on Wednesday afternoons just to catch up on paperwork. It's also a long wait to get an answer on the 1-800 number. The problems at DDS are well documented (although SSA has less direct influence on what specific states do with pay, benefits, etc. since many are state employees). As for OHO, I have seen many support staff leave government, especially since covid. I have not seen many attorneys leave SSA, but I predict a fair amount will leave within the next year or two. The PSLF and IDR waivers are slowly starting to hit student loan accounts, so attorneys who didn't have the right payment plan or the right type of loan for PSLF when they initially started working for the government are seeing those loan balances fall to $0 after hitting 120 payments earlier than anticipated. It's something that comes up fairly often when I talk to attorneys about the lack of promotional opportunity within OHO. More people will be willing to take a lateral move or even a pay cut to leave SSA for a different career path if they know they're not going to be on the hook for $500+ per month going forward. It opens up the possibilty of private sector employment for some who were holding out for PSLF relief. Now, I don't know if the agency really cares about turnover at the attorney position. I graduated during an economic downturn when people would have done cartwheels if they landed any fed job, so maybe it's just as easy to scoop up replacement cogs at GS-11. I don't know what the market is like for recent grads and early career attorneys these days. Maximizing telework, offering remote positions, and/or outstationing jobs is going to be key to retaining talent, and it costs OHO next to nothing. The flexibility of the job is still a major benefit, especially if you have kids. The field offices are a tougher issue because the job requires in person customer services, but very few OHO jobs require you to be in person on a regular basis if at all. The flexibility of the work is a powerful retention tool. You make some really good points about the Attorney gig in OHO. The debate a majority of Attorneys in OHO have is comparing the relatively good work-life balance it provides with the blatant lack of care OHO exhibits by decades of pitiful advancement/pay slated for Attorneys, especially when compared to other components in SSA (OAO, OGC, OIG etc) that pay 1-2 higher grade levels for equivalent work. The majority of other federal agencies offer high pay scales as well. OHO attorneys are continuously asked to do more and more without any type of advancement/pay offered. Nearly every OHO attorney I know is continuously looking for new positions within SSA (to get out of OHO) as well as applying to other agencies. OHO is already trying to hire more attorneys; there have been references to a “retention crisis” in the Agency as a whole. With the massive attorney hiring at the IRS and other openings notably popping up at other agencies, I can reasonably see a good chunk of OHO attorneys with 8-10+ years at SSA saying goodbye as soon as the opportunity presents itself. |
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Post by luckylady2 on Apr 11, 2023 15:51:24 GMT -5
Don't think you'll have a light workload or escape burnout if you get an ALJ gig. If you've been with SSA a while, you'll know that disability claims have a wave pattern. There was an enormous backlog, which was cleared by hiring AND requiring ALJs to do a significant number of hearings per month. (Each of which, of course, requires file review, hearing prep, hearing, instruction prep, editing the decision, and sundry other moments of temporary attention.)
There was a lull, but applications are ramping up again. ALJ's definitely did not escape the "cog in a wheel" mentality of which the article speaks. And, this forum is proof positive that there's always someone who would just LOVE to replace you.
It's a great, rewarding, maddening job, but it's a JOB and it requires a significant amount of work.
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Post by manunited77 on Apr 11, 2023 16:11:54 GMT -5
I hope I'm wrong but I think if you have been an attorney here at OHO for years and you haven't gotten at least an interview for ALJ yet, then you probably aren't on the it-list or have enough connections within the agency.
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Post by trp888 on Apr 11, 2023 16:19:38 GMT -5
Don't think you'll have a light workload or escape burnout if you get an ALJ gig. If you've been with SSA a while, you'll know that disability claims have a wave pattern. There was an enormous backlog, which was cleared by hiring AND requiring ALJs to do a significant number of hearings per month. (Each of which, of course, requires file review, hearing prep, hearing, instruction prep, editing the decision, and sundry other moments of temporary attention.)
There was a lull, but applications are ramping up again. ALJ's definitely did not escape the "cog in a wheel" mentality of which the article speaks. And, this forum is proof positive that there's always someone who would just LOVE to replace you.
It's a great, rewarding, maddening job, but it's a JOB and it requires a significant amount of work.
I actually enjoy the work I do and am well aware of the ALJ gig clog. What I have a problem with is not being paid equivalent to even other attorneys in our own Agency doing similar work. You can only go so long without looking for other options and at this point if one happens to avail itself I will probably take it. There’s pros and cons to every gig. |
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Post by trp888 on Apr 11, 2023 16:23:01 GMT -5
I hope I'm wrong but I think if you have been an attorney here at OHO for years and you haven't gotten at least an interview for ALJ yet, then you probably aren't on the it-list or have enough connections within the agency. This is the first round of ALJ hiring I’ve been able to apply for the way my career played out. No interview for me this second round (though I did get the app in), but I’m also not wholly surprised about it. One of those things you keep in the background but plan other options as if it wouldn’t happen, just unfortunate it’s the only real “advancement” option for many attorneys in OHO. |
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mbd
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Post by mbd on Apr 11, 2023 16:41:26 GMT -5
Don't think you'll have a light workload or escape burnout if you get an ALJ gig. If you've been with SSA a while, you'll know that disability claims have a wave pattern. There was an enormous backlog, which was cleared by hiring AND requiring ALJs to do a significant number of hearings per month. (Each of which, of course, requires file review, hearing prep, hearing, instruction prep, editing the decision, and sundry other moments of temporary attention.)
There was a lull, but applications are ramping up again. ALJ's definitely did not escape the "cog in a wheel" mentality of which the article speaks. And, this forum is proof positive that there's always someone who would just LOVE to replace you.
It's a great, rewarding, maddening job, but it's a JOB and it requires a significant amount of work.
I actually enjoy the work I do and am well aware of the ALJ gig clog. What I have a problem with is not being paid equivalent to even other attorneys in our own Agency doing similar work. You can only go so long without looking for other options and at this point if one happens to avail itself I will probably take it. There’s pros and cons to every gig. Outside of OAO, where attorney analysts do seem to have an easier in to GS-13 (though it’s not 100% automatic), what attorneys at SSA are honestly doing similar work for more pay? |
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Post by backofbeyond on Apr 11, 2023 16:50:28 GMT -5
AA here, over 10 years with SSA, and very much looking to jump ship but at a significant geographical disadvantage for it. Just tired of the lack of advancement and all the other things that everyone has mentioned again and again.
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33
New Member
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Post by 33 on Apr 11, 2023 19:38:36 GMT -5
I’m leaving for another agency for better pay. No promotional opportunities for attorneys at OHO. Literally feel like a replaceable robot. And also have over 10 years of experience.
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33
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by 33 on Apr 11, 2023 19:40:51 GMT -5
I actually enjoy the work I do and am well aware of the ALJ gig clog. What I have a problem with is not being paid equivalent to even other attorneys in our own Agency doing similar work. You can only go so long without looking for other options and at this point if one happens to avail itself I will probably take it. There’s pros and cons to every gig. Outside of OAO, where attorney analysts do seem to have an easier in to GS-13 (though it’s not 100% automatic), what attorneys at SSA are honestly doing similar work for more pay? OHO attorneys in my office do senior attorney work for GS12 pay. All day for years. It’s such a joke. |
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Post by Rabbit Bat Reindeer on Apr 11, 2023 19:57:55 GMT -5
It's absolutely a joke, especially if you're stuck in an OHO far from DC or Baltimore. There aren't even many opportunities at the various regional offices.
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Post by AAmillennial on Apr 12, 2023 11:05:08 GMT -5
SSA dead last at 17 of 17, and OHO with an abysmal ranking of 404 of 432 in agency subcomponents for Best Places to Work in the Federal Government, based on 2022 FEVS results. At least OHO outperformed OIG at 431?? bestplacestowork.org/rankings/detail/?c=SZ13 |
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Post by shmi1979 on Apr 12, 2023 13:45:00 GMT -5
Recently promoted attorney here. 12+ years of agency experience. I'm out as soon as I graduate with my master's in an unrelated field and find a job. After three attempts at the ALJ job and only one interview, it's not happening for me. I don't even really want it anymore. I've found something far more personally rewarding.
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Post by balzac on Apr 12, 2023 14:07:57 GMT -5
But the question is: for the disgruntled and/or disillusioned long-time OHO decision writer/attorney looking to taking their talents elsewhere, leave and DO WHAT exactly?
You have been not really been practicing law or developing marketable legal skills in your time at OHO, so getting a non-fed attorney job that will come close to matching your 90-110k pay and sweet benefits seems next to impossible. It seems like a lot of people vaguely speculate about finding a new job and then end up staying where they are at.
I'm genuinely curious and interested in what people who plan to leave or do leave end up doing.
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33
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by 33 on Apr 12, 2023 16:11:32 GMT -5
But the question is: for the disgruntled and/or disillusioned long-time OHO decision writer/attorney looking to taking their talents elsewhere, leave and DO WHAT exactly? You have been not really been practicing law or developing marketable legal skills in your time at OHO, so getting a non-fed attorney job that will come close to matching your 90-110k pay and sweet benefits seems next to impossible. It seems like a lot of people vaguely speculate about finding a new job and then end up staying where they are at. I'm genuinely curious and interested in what people who plan to leave or do leave end up doing. You have to step back and look at your skills.. they are there. We just get bogged down with not being appreciated at SSA that we don’t see them. |
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