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Post by balzac on Apr 12, 2023 16:34:42 GMT -5
But the question is: for the disgruntled and/or disillusioned long-time OHO decision writer/attorney looking to taking their talents elsewhere, leave and DO WHAT exactly? You have been not really been practicing law or developing marketable legal skills in your time at OHO, so getting a non-fed attorney job that will come close to matching your 90-110k pay and sweet benefits seems next to impossible. It seems like a lot of people vaguely speculate about finding a new job and then end up staying where they are at. I'm genuinely curious and interested in what people who plan to leave or do leave end up doing. You have to step back and look at your skills.. they are there. We just get bogged down with not being appreciated at SSA that we don’t see them. Yes I agree with you, the underlying skills and abilities may be there. But prospective law firms and other entities care about your actual experience and the practical value one brings. Like I said- decisions writers don't practice law and they are not developing marketable legal skills in their roles (unless your goal is private disability practice). Those are facts. Having done multiple interviews for jobs outside of the govt while still employed here, it is quite difficult to tell a compelling story about being an OHO decision writer and to correlate that story with different types of attorney positions. |
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Post by AAmillennial on Apr 12, 2023 17:04:40 GMT -5
While I haven't been in your shoes interviewing and have no idea what types of attorney positions you're actively seeking, I'd probably be highlighting my duties in a resume-building fashion. A few that come to mind- managing heavy caseloads in a production driven environment, significant understanding of a wide range of medical conditions and associated treatment, navigating complex provisions of Title II/XVI and administrative law, performing extensive legal research/writing, etc.
Now, obviously these skills may be better suited for a job in PI or work comp vs. in-house, but I certainly feel there are opportunities for marketability and transferable skills (ha) from life as an AA in OHO.
If potential employers have given you an interview, then they must be interested in you and it really comes down to selling yourself. And in my experience, such interviews are much different than the typical SSA STAR method structure and you should have an opportunity to highlight your strengths.
Look at it this way- you are an expert in disability law and have mastered this niche. You've shown your ability to learn and perform well in a complex area of the law for an agency that underutilized your skills and offered limited promotional opportunities. Now you're ready for the next chapter and to master a new job.
Just my $.02
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Post by secretsauce on Apr 13, 2023 6:18:22 GMT -5
But the question is: for the disgruntled and/or disillusioned long-time OHO decision writer/attorney looking to taking their talents elsewhere, leave and DO WHAT exactly? You have been not really been practicing law or developing marketable legal skills in your time at OHO, so getting a non-fed attorney job that will come close to matching your 90-110k pay and sweet benefits seems next to impossible. It seems like a lot of people vaguely speculate about finding a new job and then end up staying where they are at. I'm genuinely curious and interested in what people who plan to leave or do leave end up doing. I hope you aren't an ALJ. The disdain for AAs is noticeable in my agency and negatively impacts morale. I get that ALJ positions are tough to get, so ALJs should be proud of themselves. However, AAs remain your professional colleagues and should be treated as such. While they may have made different professional choices than you, that doesn't diminish the skills that they do have. As a side note, I find that ALJs who were once decision writers make better judges. They tend to understand the law better. There are plenty of legal roads other than litigation, particularly in the federal government. AAs will be fine, especially in this era of remote work. |
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Post by rightspeech on Apr 16, 2023 13:02:34 GMT -5
I'm genuinely curious and interested in what people who plan to leave or do leave end up doing. I'm outing myself but guess it doesn't matter anymore. I just left for a remote gs13 HR job at another agency. I just started but I'm happier so far |
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Post by stevenq on Apr 16, 2023 19:06:56 GMT -5
I'm genuinely curious and interested in what people who plan to leave or do leave end up doing. I'm outing myself but guess it doesn't matter anymore. I just left for a remote gs13 HR job at another agency. I just started but I'm happier so far After a very long time and so many applications I got on with OGC at a different agency. But the previous posters are right--an AA is going to have a hell of a time getting on with another agency (or firm) if all their experience is AA experience or it's been a long time since they practiced in another area. Trust me, I lived it. And I know dozens and dozens of AAs who would already be gone if they could only get an offer. ALJs aren't going to leave en masse except maybe for retirement eligible ones in good financial shape even if things get worse and worse. Why? Because they also have very limited career prospects outside OHO. Where are they gonna go and come close to a buck eighty? Or where they are so clearly atop the hierarchy and so insulated from things due to that privileged position? Maybe a state admin judge role of some sort, but most of those pay peanuts and are worse day to day than OHO. They're not gonna just slide into county or state real judge jobs, lol. Go back to their grind prosecutor fed jobs at gs-14 or 15 or with a state or county? Ha, they agreed to moving to East craplandia for an indeterminate about of time to leave those jobs in the first place! Like someone said earlier, most (AAs and ALJs) are just going to be stuck (and miserable) until either SSA improves things or they finally get that unlikely other job; they make just too much money, get too many good benefits, have too much telework, etc. to give it up for most all the relatively cruddy other jobs they could actually get. How it's been for years, how it's gonna stay. |
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Post by trp888 on Apr 17, 2023 8:49:52 GMT -5
I'm outing myself but guess it doesn't matter anymore. I just left for a remote gs13 HR job at another agency. I just started but I'm happier so far After a very long time and so many applications I got on with OGC at a different agency. But the previous posters are right--an AA is going to have a hell of a time getting on with another agency (or firm) if all their experience is AA experience or it's been a long time since they practiced in another area. Trust me, I lived it. And I know dozens and dozens of AAs who would already be gone if they could only get an offer. ALJs aren't going to leave en masse except maybe for retirement eligible ones in good financial shape even if things get worse and worse. Why? Because they also have very limited career prospects outside OHO. Where are they gonna go and come close to a buck eighty? Or where they are so clearly atop the hierarchy and so insulated from things due to that privileged position? Maybe a state admin judge role of some sort, but most of those pay peanuts and are worse day to day than OHO. They're not gonna just slide into county or state real judge jobs, lol. Go back to their grind prosecutor fed jobs at gs-14 or 15 or with a state or county? Ha, they agreed to moving to East craplandia for an indeterminate about of time to leave those jobs in the first place! Like someone said earlier, most (AAs and ALJs) are just going to be stuck (and miserable) until either SSA improves things or they finally get that unlikely other job; they make just too much money, get too many good benefits, have too much telework, etc. to give it up for most all the relatively cruddy other jobs they could actually get. How it's been for years, how it's gonna stay. I’d love to see a AA raise their hand and say they “make too much money” 😂😂 |
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Post by seaprongs on Apr 17, 2023 10:01:38 GMT -5
After a very long time and so many applications I got on with OGC at a different agency. But the previous posters are right--an AA is going to have a hell of a time getting on with another agency (or firm) if all their experience is AA experience or it's been a long time since they practiced in another area. Trust me, I lived it. And I know dozens and dozens of AAs who would already be gone if they could only get an offer. ALJs aren't going to leave en masse except maybe for retirement eligible ones in good financial shape even if things get worse and worse. Why? Because they also have very limited career prospects outside OHO. Where are they gonna go and come close to a buck eighty? Or where they are so clearly atop the hierarchy and so insulated from things due to that privileged position? Maybe a state admin judge role of some sort, but most of those pay peanuts and are worse day to day than OHO. They're not gonna just slide into county or state real judge jobs, lol. Go back to their grind prosecutor fed jobs at gs-14 or 15 or with a state or county? Ha, they agreed to moving to East craplandia for an indeterminate about of time to leave those jobs in the first place! Like someone said earlier, most (AAs and ALJs) are just going to be stuck (and miserable) until either SSA improves things or they finally get that unlikely other job; they make just too much money, get too many good benefits, have too much telework, etc. to give it up for most all the relatively cruddy other jobs they could actually get. How it's been for years, how it's gonna stay. I’d love to see a AA raise their hand and say they “make too much money” 😂😂 I think one of the hard things about leaving SSA is that (at least where I live) a GS-12 is a higher salary than most attorneys are making except for the big law firms and a few mid sized firms/litigation boutiques. Even if an attorney is making that much or more, they are most certainly not working 40 hour weeks. I haven't poked around much, but when I get restless, I largely look to stay in federal government, even if it's a lateral move to a different agency. This job is good enough that I've always felt I can apply for stuff that I want to do. However, I get the sense other attorneys are more restless, and they may be less passive in their search. |
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Post by stevenq on Apr 17, 2023 20:10:08 GMT -5
After a very long time and so many applications I got on with OGC at a different agency. But the previous posters are right--an AA is going to have a hell of a time getting on with another agency (or firm) if all their experience is AA experience or it's been a long time since they practiced in another area. Trust me, I lived it. And I know dozens and dozens of AAs who would already be gone if they could only get an offer. ALJs aren't going to leave en masse except maybe for retirement eligible ones in good financial shape even if things get worse and worse. Why? Because they also have very limited career prospects outside OHO. Where are they gonna go and come close to a buck eighty? Or where they are so clearly atop the hierarchy and so insulated from things due to that privileged position? Maybe a state admin judge role of some sort, but most of those pay peanuts and are worse day to day than OHO. They're not gonna just slide into county or state real judge jobs, lol. Go back to their grind prosecutor fed jobs at gs-14 or 15 or with a state or county? Ha, they agreed to moving to East craplandia for an indeterminate about of time to leave those jobs in the first place! Like someone said earlier, most (AAs and ALJs) are just going to be stuck (and miserable) until either SSA improves things or they finally get that unlikely other job; they make just too much money, get too many good benefits, have too much telework, etc. to give it up for most all the relatively cruddy other jobs they could actually get. How it's been for years, how it's gonna stay. I’d love to see a AA raise their hand and say they “make too much money” 😂😂 I meant what the poster after you intimated: AA pays just enough to be about as much or just a bit less than an AA could get in the jobs they could realistically flee to (claimant's rep, starting over at a smaller firm doing whatever as basically a new associate, etc.). It isn't a ton of money, I didn't mean that, but combined with the 40 hour work week, lack of clients/billables, the great benefits, easy to use leave, etc. it's just hard to leave. Most jobs an AA without much/any recent practice in other areas could actually get would pose an out of the frying pan into the fire type situation. |
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Post by briscoej on Apr 17, 2023 20:59:48 GMT -5
I suspect most people want to quit their jobs on a regular basis for one reason or another. I have often wondered what percentage of attorneys wake up excited about their work day. I would love to find that but I have no idea what that job would even look like for me.
For AAs looking for higher pay OGC does hire AAs. If you applied and don’t end up getting an offer, keep your eye out for any detail opportunities. I know of multiple AAs hired after doing a detail. Though fair warning morale is not that high right now within OGC either for various reasons, one of them being high stress due to large workloads. However, GS-14 is easily attainable in a relatively short period of time. GS-15 is possible but not easy to come by.
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Post by trp888 on Apr 18, 2023 7:08:41 GMT -5
I’d love to see a AA raise their hand and say they “make too much money” 😂😂 I meant what the poster after you intimated: AA pays just enough to be about as much or just a bit less than an AA could get in the jobs they could realistically flee to (claimant's rep, starting over at a smaller firm doing whatever as basically a new associate, etc.). It isn't a ton of money, I didn't mean that, but combined with the 40 hour work week, lack of clients/billables, the great benefits, easy to use leave, etc. it's just hard to leave. Most jobs an AA without much/any recent practice in other areas could actually get would pose an out of the frying pan into the fire type situation. Fair enough and all true statements. All the AAs I know who have left have gone to other Federal agencies except for 1 (went small private). Some left for internal gigs like OGC, but I know of a few that have recently left or are planning to accept a pending offer from another Fed Agency - all of them are stellar AA. A lot of agencies are trying to hire while they can, and with more embracing remote work, we’ll see where that leaves OHO. |
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Post by devilzadvocateq on Apr 18, 2023 12:21:27 GMT -5
Left SSA as an ALJ after about 15 months and went back to the private sector. SSA was an absolutely miserable place that brought out all the worst features of govt bureaucracy that most people have grown to despise. Micromanaging my style and belittling the role of judge was oppressive, but instilling a culture of fear of speech and forced conformance was outright communist. I was thrilled to leave, and thrilled to be free and thankful to be earning double my govt salary on the “outside”.
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Post by manunited77 on Apr 19, 2023 8:07:50 GMT -5
Left for a detail a couple of weeks ago. I'm going to spend the next year applying for jobs outside of SSA. After years with the agency, it's clear they don't want me to advance beyond where I am. Hopefully with all the new attorney hires in other agencies, I'll find a new home to spend the next 10 years before I can retire.
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Post by sunshinedaydream on Apr 20, 2023 14:21:12 GMT -5
Left SSA as an ALJ after about 15 months and went back to the private sector. SSA was an absolutely miserable place that brought out all the worst features of govt bureaucracy that most people have grown to despise. Micromanaging my style and belittling the role of judge was oppressive, but instilling a culture of fear of speech and forced conformance was outright communist. I was thrilled to leave, and thrilled to be free and thankful to be earning double my govt salary on the “outside”. Curious in what field? Practicing law? Solo? At a law firm? Area of practice? |
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Post by operationalj on Apr 20, 2023 15:44:52 GMT -5
Whatever you do, stay or leave SSA, take care of yourself. I'm handling a case now for an attorney whose body and mind crumbled under the demands of litigation that required working 60-80 hours per week for over 10 years. S/he made good money and partner, but in the end, it did not matter to her body or to the other partners. An exception, maybe, but good reminder as an attorney, keep yourself priority and you can always change your mind if something is not working out.
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Post by rp on Apr 20, 2023 20:13:10 GMT -5
Left SSA as an ALJ after about 15 months and went back to the private sector. SSA was an absolutely miserable place that brought out all the worst features of govt bureaucracy that most people have grown to despise. Micromanaging my style and belittling the role of judge was oppressive, but instilling a culture of fear of speech and forced conformance was outright communist. I was thrilled to leave, and thrilled to be free and thankful to be earning double my govt salary on the “outside”. Sorry to hear that. Keep in mind folks, YMMV. This has not been my experience at all. As noted earlier, I previously had one of those high stress litigation jobs that was going to ultimately be my demise. Happy to be here - and will stay until retirement. Best job I have ever had. |
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Post by ssaogc on Apr 21, 2023 11:27:50 GMT -5
Left SSA as an ALJ after about 15 months and went back to the private sector. SSA was an absolutely miserable place that brought out all the worst features of govt bureaucracy that most people have grown to despise. Micromanaging my style and belittling the role of judge was oppressive, but instilling a culture of fear of speech and forced conformance was outright communist. I was thrilled to leave, and thrilled to be free and thankful to be earning double my govt salary on the “outside”. Curious in what field? Practicing law? Solo? At a law firm? Area of practice? I believe I know this former ALJ or someone in similar position. Had lots of litigation experience prior to ALJ. On the younger side like under 40 and too full of energy and vigor to settle down for 20 plus years of disability cases at SSA. I do not blame them for leaving but remember most folks do not have this as an option once they take the ALJ job. I took ALJ gig knowing it would be my last federal position and I intend to retire from this position. ALJ is a good job but it becomes routine and repetitive once you get the gist of the process. The prep time for the hearing gets manageable as you know what you are looking for, the hearings get streamlined because you basically memorize the process, instructions are easier to write and when it comes time for editing you know which writer needs more review and what areas you need to review on the draft. the new ALJ contract has made work life balance the best I have had in 37 years of Government service! |
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Post by sunshinedaydream on Apr 24, 2023 10:10:29 GMT -5
Curious in what field? Practicing law? Solo? At a law firm? Area of practice? I believe I know this former ALJ or someone in similar position. Had lots of litigation experience prior to ALJ. On the younger side like under 40 and too full of energy and vigor to settle down for 20 plus years of disability cases at SSA. I do not blame them for leaving but remember most folks do not have this as an option once they take the ALJ job. I took ALJ gig knowing it would be my last federal position and I intend to retire from this position. ALJ is a good job but it becomes routine and repetitive once you get the gist of the process. The prep time for the hearing gets manageable as you know what you are looking for, the hearings get streamlined because you basically memorize the process, instructions are easier to write and when it comes time for editing you know which writer needs more review and what areas you need to review on the draft. the new ALJ contract has made work life balance the best I have had in 37 years of Gov'mernment service! Impressed that they landed a private sector gig earning $360K after presumably giving up their client base for 15 months as a SSA ALJ... |
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Post by ssaogc on Apr 24, 2023 11:26:51 GMT -5
I believe I know this former ALJ or someone in similar position. Had lots of litigation experience prior to ALJ. On the younger side like under 40 and too full of energy and vigor to settle down for 20 plus years of disability cases at SSA. I do not blame them for leaving but remember most folks do not have this as an option once they take the ALJ job. I took ALJ gig knowing it would be my last federal position and I intend to retire from this position. ALJ is a good job but it becomes routine and repetitive once you get the gist of the process. The prep time for the hearing gets manageable as you know what you are looking for, the hearings get streamlined because you basically memorize the process, instructions are easier to write and when it comes time for editing you know which writer needs more review and what areas you need to review on the draft. the new ALJ contract has made work life balance the best I have had in 37 years of Gov'mernment service! Impressed that they landed a private sector gig earning $360K after presumably giving up their client base for 15 months as a SSA ALJ... all you need is one corporate client if you have experience in fraud, money laundering or SEC related practice. $360k is on lower end of salaries at some of those financial institutions that need folks with regulatory background and litigation experience. Remember SEC settles many of its cases and you have to know what you are talking about to be successful in that practice. Many folks have not been exposed to the universe in legal field that exists out there in places like NY, Hong Kong, Silicon Valley and the Middle East in places like Dubai. And if you speak Arabic or Mandarin forget it this $360k salary would be an insult. |
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Post by beentheredoneit on Apr 24, 2023 19:10:27 GMT -5
Been a long time since I have been here. Was here years ago as a self employed rep and then was appointed to be an alj. Left the board. Now, I am in process of leaving the SSA as an alj. I see where the discussion even years and years later has not changed much on here. So, give a few moments and I will give some personal insight, pros and cons of being an alj and leaving same.
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Post by jagvet on Apr 24, 2023 19:47:48 GMT -5
Maybe I'm just easily entertained, but I find almost every single case to be fascinating. I love interacting with reps, claimants and OHO staff. I tend to ignore the bureaucratic machinations. The union seems to have little impact nationwide (rearranging the Titanic's deck chairs), and my "local" is totally invisible. I still love the job.
My complaints are more national in scope, like the fact that claimants are given 50 million hearings even if they won't show. AC remands over evidence submitted ab initio on appeal. Arcane and bizarre rules on the type of hearing. Even with all that, it is the best job ever.
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