Leaving SSA?

[beentheredoneit]

Being an ALJ for the SSA is….eye opening to say the least.

Prior to comment on same, let me first state I have been employed for 50 years plus now. I have worked in unique jobs in different locales and environments. I have worked in simple jobs, in extremely hazardous jobs, for multi-billion dollar major corporations and have testified in person before the US Congress (a hazard in itself). Prior to being an ALJ, I was for years on the other side of the fence before the government said, hey, why don’t you come over to this side and work for us. I have been an ALJ in multiple OHOs of which there are very good and there are incredibly bad OHOs.

As far as being an ALJ, in my observation there are some very solid “pros”.

First and primary; the federal benefits; health, medical dental, long term care, etc. There simply is no comparison in the private sector. None. For the low premiums we pay, we receive benefits that are simply unreachable by the vast majority of Americans. We, also includes, family...and for life if requested. In today’s world, these benefits alone justify any headaches.

In regard to ALJ salaries, those are public knowledge. You will max out on your salary without lifting a finger or request in a few years; all but guaranteed. Are ALJs (as well as other similar levels federal employees) overpaid? Tell your local voter in Walmart what you make on their dime and then ask them what they think.

In regard to the actual work….I will be brutally honest. The job ain’t…by far…….rocket science. Not even close. Not even remotely close. This job, is (soon was) by far, by very very very far, mentally the easiest job I have ever done for the salary/benefits received. As long as you have any basic sense of time/project management, I found that I had absolutely zero problem managing any dockets, hearings, decisions etc. to the point I could and was asked to assist other aljs on their work and dockets. (More on that later). In recent years, the hearings are, by agency demand, rote (follow and do not vary from the script); instructions boil down to simply clicking bullet points through a pre-constructed Agency made template and clicking a mouse to send off to writing. Decisions…are agency tailor made; and the agency’s Artificial intelligence will review your decision and tell you what errors or edits need to be made before you can sign. I often described my alj role as sitting alone copying and moving data from one computer screen to another day in and day out and clicking a mouse to send out decisions. There is extremely little if any actual legal research or dissertation involved in the position.

As fars as “cons”; the singular one would be; as per the Agency, you are definitely not, by no means, in any way shape or form recognized as a true “judge” with real judicial authority. (Judge Judy has by far more actual judicial authority than an SSA ALJ). At the very most you are a very highly paid, glorified hearing officer in the Agency’s mindset. The position is so micro-micromanaged that (and I thought this was a welcome to the job joke on my first day) that you must sign in and out on a time clock each and every work day for your entire career, just like a minimum wage busboy at Denny’s. You have no authority over any staff, you are there only to put out dispositions so that the Agency/management can claim rewards, bonuses, etc for itself on your production rates. Fall behind on your production rates and you will bear the wrath of management. In that regard the bipolar nature of the agency must be recognized as ever present. As noted above, I did not find and had no problem at all meeting assigned quotas. In fact, early on in my life as an ALJ, I was at the very top levels in production, which I thought was a good thing. No, I received written notice from the top office that my excessive production was not beneficial to the agency and that I better not exceed quotas at my rate again or face disciplinary inquiry. Ok, lesson learned, do the minimum quota at increasing pay to stay in good stead with the agency. In similar regard, I used to assist and help other aljs who had fallen behind on their quotas until, once again I faced discipline by TPTB for doing same, I was expressly informed that alas could assist other aljs only after first being requested to do so by the Agency itself and then only after being expressly authorized to bo so and then again those cases being assisted must first by re-assigned by the Agency. Ok, lesson learned; do not lead friendly assistance to fellow aljs without agency pre-approval. Next, for a long time, I used to write all my own favorable decisions. Using provided software and AI, I (as any ALJ) could easily write, sign and dispose of a favorable decision in the minutes following a hearing. The rep is happy the claimant is happy and saving a ton of taxdollars and time. No, the agency informed me that doing so was not a proper use of alj time, so I was to no longer write and issue my own favorable decisions. Yes, I would be paid the same, even received another federal salary rate increase, while being expressly told to do less work.

As far as observations and not so much “cons”, IMHO the SSA agency as a whole is teetering on collapse due to an overwhelming lack of top-level management and direction. There is nobody in charge is the common expression universally voiced ; and that is factually true. Work is being performed that serves no observable purpose. Example: I was in a hearing the other week, I disagreeigned VHR ( local staffer) was furiously clicking away on her laptop between hearings. I asked what she was doing. She said she was reviewing all the medicals in each assigned claims file and entering a one line description of same on a computer sub-line inside another computer program for each fie. I asked “why”. She responded, well because you ALJs want that and read it. I replied: Uh no. In all my years, I and no other ALJ I know ever read that sub-line there or have any need to read that or any need to use it. Her response: WTH? Everyday I and others sit 8 hours a day, day after day, doing this and nobody uses or read it? I shrugged and said, no one I have ever heard of in all these years. This type needless, unnecessary make work is prevalent throughout the agency. Mindboggling wastes of time and monies.

Other observations; the agency wants numbers, cases scheduled, hearings held at any cost. In the past few years, this means that it is very common for me to hold entire dockets where no one ever shows because no one in the agency sent out a notice of hearing to the proper address of the claimant (and many times did not notify the rep). It has become very common for the agency to schedule hearings where there has been no attempt to contact the claimant (or rep) in months or year(s) prior to the hearing. It has become common to hold a hearing where there are no medical records or consultative exams in the record as the agency simply failed to bother to obtain same. Sounds bad? No there is always method in madness. Most if not all these hearings get postponed and sent back for workup, and as result, the OHO gets to again score another bonus point for another hearing scheduled….even though it is the same case. Double, triple dipping………ad nauseum …no harm no foul it’s all good for the agency.

There’s are many more observations I could make but that is sufficient for now. That said a few months ago when one morning while clocking in like a dishwasher for the umpteenth time, I grinned, began laughing and simply and easily said to myself that I don’t need or want to do this anymore and immediately submitted my email of resignation. It was an interesting ride, no regrets and I wake up grinning each day looking forward to the last day.

[nylawyer]

I never really had to fill in a timesheet prior to being an ALJ, but I can't complain- because of credit hours.

If I am going to ask the agency to give me additional vacation time because I worked more than scheduled, then I don't think it's unreasonable that I document that I worked that time. (I have some specific complaints about webta, but it's mostly nitpicking).

[operationalj]

Apr 24, 2023 10:10:29 GMT -5 sunshinedaydream said:

Apr 21, 2023 11:27:50 GMT -5 ssaogc said:

I believe I know this former ALJ or someone in similar position. Had lots of litigation experience prior to ALJ. On the younger side like under 40 and too full of energy and vigor to settle down for 20 plus years of disability cases at SSA. I do not blame them for leaving but remember most folks do not have this as an option once they take the ALJ job. I took ALJ gig knowing it would be my last federal position and I intend to retire from this position. 

ALJ is a good job but it becomes routine and repetitive once you get the gist of the process. The prep time for the hearing gets manageable as you know what you are looking for, the hearings get streamlined because you basically memorize the process, instructions are easier to write and when it comes time for editing you know which writer needs more review and what areas you need to review on the draft. 

the new ALJ contract has made work life balance the best I have had in 37 years of Gov'mernment service!

Impressed that they landed a private sector gig earning $360K after presumably giving up their client base for 15 months as a SSA ALJ...

Generally speaking, you’re right about the “client base.” Negotiating the sale of a firm and it’s primarily selling the client base because in this virtual environment there’s not a lot of tangible items. Losing a client base is something to seriously consider.

[Pixie]

I'm glad you are leaving. Probably should have done it well before now. The job just doesn't agree with you. I haven't experienced the job dissatisfaction that you have.

As to signing in and out, when I started, that was optional. Every judge in my offices, except for one or two, opted to sign in. When I heard about that process, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. "You mean I actually get credit for working extra hours?" In my prior job that was water under the bridge. Anything extra worked, and there was a lot of it, was just lost. There was simply too much work to be able to take off and make up for extra hours worked. A short week was considered 50 hours, and there weren't many of them.

So, yes, we signed in and out and were glad to be able to do it. Pixie

[beentheredoneit]

No Pixie, not dissatisfied with the job, just no longer challenged.

I was one of the few aljs I personally knew that used the free LexisNexis site provided to all aljs. I subscribed to the daily case sheets of SSA appeals for the SCOTUS as well as various CCA's. Read them religiously every morning, would document and categorize important findings and share in written headnotes and summaries with other aljs. I would refer to same to the agency to apprise them of changes in the law as directly impacting SSA hearings, decisions etc. The response of the agency: an express admonition by the Agency that as we are "not Art. III judges" aljs "shall not" to refer to or use or cite any court findings as the agency does not consider and the agency "will not follow" any circuit or court holdings nor implement same unless SSA instructs otherwise. Keeping up with, studying and applying the actual law to the ssa process is highly discouraged by the agency. Okaaay, so much for knowledge contribution and expansion.

As far as punching a clock, as a lifetime salaried employee, to then be required to punch a clock (from any management 101 course) loudly shouts "we don't trust you" to do your job. I routinely over the years would work weekends, in evenings etc and not bother to record my time as I am a salaried lifetime employee, happy to do my job without need of an extremely insecure agency twisting its hands and looking over my should to see what I am doing and counting the minutes. Trust me, I will do the work. But as noted the agency takes the typical govt position of one shall only do the bare minimal of what we allow you to do and no more; do not exceed expectations was the clear message. Okaaaay,,,do less work for more pay.


So not dissatisfied, but solely because of agency micromanagement and discouragement of any self-expansion or offering of teaching or assistance to others in need; the position has become totally and completely mentally unchallenging for my background and education. One of the worst thing a person can do is not exercise their mind.

[february]

I’m with Pixie—the ability to earn credit hours is an amazing perk of the job.

I’ve never had a private or public legal job where I didn’t have to somehow document my time, and merely signing in/out each day is so much less burdensome than tracking my work in 6 minute increments like I used to have to do in private practice. There are problems with SSA, but in my opinion, this isn’t one of them.

[operationalj]

Apr 25, 2023 8:56:24 GMT -5 february said:

I’m with Pixie—the ability to earn credit hours is an amazing perk of the job.

I’ve never had a private or public legal job where I didn’t have to somehow document my time, and merely signing in/out each day is so much less burdensome than tracking my work in 6 minute increments like I used to have to do in private practice. There are problems with SSA, but in my opinion, this isn’t one of them.

Many private attorneys, including myself, have gone to flat fee arrangements because billable hours are burdensome and annoying. Signing in and out each day is an improvement from billable hours and a more efficient work process. And, based on my prior fed experience, kudos to the OHO timekeeper because some attorneys are not good at math.

[pumpkin]

beentheredoneit It sounds like SSA was not a great fit for you. I hope you can find the happiness that eluded you at SSA.

There are a number of folks who recently interviewed for the ALJ position, many of whom have probably read your posts. I would wager that a fair majority of them would still excitedly raise their hands and say, “pick me!” for the job. Thanks for making room for some other person’s dream to come true.

[beentheredoneit]

No problem, and yes, I have no qualms that when time is up it is time to get out and let someone ride the carny.  (There already has been a unfilled vacancy here, and in addition to myself,  another and more are likely in process as well; but inquiry shows zero plans by the agency to refill these spots in the foreseeable future)

Like I have said no regrets at all; the job itself is great, but the agency is openly and deliberately negating the position.  (E.g, one is not permitted to address the position as "US" or "United States" judge or "federal judge" or for that matter an Administrative Law Judge using capital letters;  research it, the agency and rules/regs recognize the position only as lower case "administrative law judge". The agency is always trying to enable other administrative positions to hear these cases and issue decisions.  Additionally for the past two years, some federal courts in their decisions now address SSA aljs only as "hearing officers".

I and others find that the the clock is running against this position as being existence as it is in the future. The the best thing that can happen is for the aljs to remove themselves in toto from under the agency thumb; become true independent judicial officers under the judicial branch and subject themselves to the Judicial Code of Conduct. Stranger things have happened.   

[recoveringalj]

Based on the polls, the candidates are almost all insiders. They should know what the job entails, and the job is likely more attractive than what they are currently doing at SSA. Given that, it seems unlikely that most will run into the problem of “culture shock” that previous ALJs (who went through the OPM process and came from outside) have experienced.

[otter]

Beenthere has nailed it.

Ten years ago, I was in a litigating division at Main Justice and applied to be an ALJ because I thought I'd get to do judge stuff and also get to move back to the upper Midwest where Mrs otter and I are from. I was excited to get picked but (thankfully) Mrs otter and I decided that she and the the little otters would stay in the DC area (cool kids call it the DMV) until I was sure I'd made the right choice.

I soon experienced what Beenthere talks about. Within 6 months, I could see that I would soon be bored out of my mind. I also realized that I'd had more autonomy and respect from my agency when I was at DOJ. Additionally, my new ALJ colleagues who'd come from SSA were not receptive to my complaints. They often defended the agency or acted as if the way SSA did things was how the rest of government did things. Mrs otter and I started saying that SSA stands for Stockholm Syndrome Administration.

After about a year, I was preparing to ask for my old job back. Luckily an ALJ opportunity opened up at another agency in DC and I jumped at it. I guess things worked out but Beenthere is not alone. Anyone who's been to a FALJC conference can confirm that.

[christina]

I too hope ur next step leads to joy beentheredonethat. Although many Aljs love job not all do and I’ve heard variations of your sentiments over the years. I thank u for ur candid post on Oho from ur perspective

[christina]

Apr 24, 2023 19:47:48 GMT -5 jagvet said:

Maybe I'm just easily entertained, but I find almost every single case to be fascinating. I love interacting with reps, claimants and OHO staff. I tend to ignore the bureaucratic machinations. The union seems to have little impact nationwide (rearranging the Titanic's deck chairs), and my "local" is totally invisible. I still love the job.

My complaints are more national in scope, like the fact that claimants are given 50 million hearings even if they won't show. AC remands over evidence submitted ab initio on appeal. Arcane and bizarre rules on the type of hearing. Even with all that, it is the best job ever.

I’m with u on multiple points. I love the medicine too and I would think the combo of medicine we learn with time mangt are marketable skills for other jobs inc other legal jobs. Whether the market would hire us, I’m not as up on cause I don’t look too often. My peers who have jumped ship have found jobs litigating, other agency or state job positions, and even corporate and non profits. So finding something else is doable.I’d think one would need to market resume well. And tbh some of my Oho departed friends used or had connections that helped them start their post Oho life.

Returning to my friend jagvets post, I agree on the endless hearings for no show cases too. We as in agency need a better game plan to address this.

[beentheredoneit]

Thank you Otter and all others for your additional frankness. As you note there are many many other aljs here who routinely voice and discuss same among and between ourselves, but they choose to remain silent for whatever reason.

The point being made is quite simple. For those wannabe aljs and pre-applicants; be fully aware and cognizant; the job is in no way shape or form remotely judicial. There is little if any actual jurisprudence required (per Agency design and mandate) to do or to succeed in the job. At best you are a glorified hearing officer, the vast majority of your days will be spent working in solitude mind numbingly transferring data from one screen to another. And mind numbing is an understatement. Hence the push by the agency to hire only insiders; insiders are already used to the clerical routine as is.

So why do it? Simple. If one is of close to retirement age the job with its attendant benefits is a quick golden ticket to retirement. If one is of younger age, especially with dependents, then go for it. Work the routine for the minimal number of years to become benefits/pay vested (usually <10 years you max out on salary and benefits and there is no further gain to the position), then get out and move on, let someone else get a ticket on the merry-go-round. You got it made now.

[neufenland]

Apr 27, 2023 12:33:14 GMT -5 beentheredoneit said:

Thank you Otter and all others for your additional frankness. As you note there are many many other aljs here who routinely voice and discuss same among and between ourselves, but they choose to remain silent for whatever reason.

The point being made is quite simple. For those wannabe aljs and pre-applicants; be fully aware and cognizant; the job is in no way shape or form remotely judicial. There is little if any actual jurisprudence required (per Agency design and mandate) to do or to succeed in the job. At best you are a glorified hearing officer, the vast majority of your days will be spent working in solitude mind numbingly transferring data from one screen to another. And mind numbing is an understatement. Hence the push by the agency to hire only insiders; insiders are already used to the clerical routine as is.

So why do it? Simple. If one is of close to retirement age the job with its attendant benefits is a quick golden ticket to retirement. If one is of younger age, especially with dependents, then go for it. Work the routine for the minimal number of years to become benefits/pay vested (usually <10 years you max out on salary and benefits and there is no further gain to the position), then get out and move on, let someone else get a ticket on the merry-go-round. You got it made now.

I didn't want to post anything in this thread, because I get how people need to vent, but...

The claimants think you're a "real" judge.  You're the person who can help them with their very real problems, and even if you can't, you're the person who really listens to them tell their story.  You are the human face of the federal government.

I'm sorry you haven't enjoyed the position, and I wish you the best as you look elsewhere.  Life is short, and you should be happy in what you do.  

That said, I, personally, can think of nothing more honorable in the legal profession than to have the trust of my government to make decisions which directly impact the welfare of individual Americans.  Real, life-changing decisions for them. Maybe they are routine for you, but for each person who appears in front of you, it is anything but routine.  

I am in the mix for the position, having interviewed last year.  It would be the honor of my professional life to accept, and I will do so wholeheartedly should I be so fortunate as to get an offer.  

Good luck to you.  

[AAmillennial]

Apr 27, 2023 12:33:14 GMT -5 beentheredoneit said:

Thank you Otter and all others for your additional frankness. As you note there are many many other aljs here who routinely voice and discuss same among and between ourselves, but they choose to remain silent for whatever reason.

The point being made is quite simple. For those wannabe aljs and pre-applicants; be fully aware and cognizant; the job is in no way shape or form remotely judicial. There is little if any actual jurisprudence required (per Agency design and mandate) to do or to succeed in the job. At best you are a glorified hearing officer, the vast majority of your days will be spent working in solitude mind numbingly transferring data from one screen to another. And mind numbing is an understatement. Hence the push by the agency to hire only insiders; insiders are already used to the clerical routine as is.

So why do it? Simple. If one is of close to retirement age the job with its attendant benefits is a quick golden ticket to retirement. If one is of younger age, especially with dependents, then go for it. Work the routine for the minimal number of years to become benefits/pay vested (usually <10 years you max out on salary and benefits and there is no further gain to the position), then get out and move on, let someone else get a ticket on the merry-go-round. You got it made now.

Or perhaps insiders have relevant experience and expertise? While it isn't rocket science, I've witnessed outsiders struggle with understanding even basic concepts within the world of disability. Maybe the Agency sees value in hiring a subject matter expert to be "transferring data from one screen to another".

[aa7]

Apr 24, 2023 20:42:58 GMT -5 beentheredoneit said:

Being an ALJ for the SSA is….eye opening to say the least.

Prior to comment on same, let me first state I have been employed for 50 years plus now. I have worked in unique jobs in different locales and environments. I have worked in simple jobs, in extremely hazardous jobs, for multi-billion dollar major corporations and have testified in person before the US Congress (a hazard in itself). Prior to being an ALJ, I was for years on the other side of the fence before the government said, hey, why don’t you come over to this side and work for us. I have been an ALJ in multiple OHOs of which there are very good and there are incredibly bad OHOs.

As far as being an ALJ, in my observation there are some very solid “pros”.

First and primary; the federal benefits; health, medical dental, long term care, etc. There simply is no comparison in the private sector. None. For the low premiums we pay, we receive benefits that are simply unreachable by the vast majority of Americans. We, also includes, family...and for life if requested. In today’s world, these benefits alone justify any headaches.

In regard to ALJ salaries, those are public knowledge. You will max out on your salary without lifting a finger or request in a few years; all but guaranteed. Are ALJs (as well as other similar levels federal employees) overpaid? Tell your local voter in Walmart what you make on their dime and then ask them what they think.

In regard to the actual work….I will be brutally honest. The job ain’t…by far…….rocket science. Not even close. Not even remotely close. This job, is (soon was) by far, by very very very far, mentally the easiest job I have ever done for the salary/benefits received. As long as you have any basic sense of time/project management, I found that I had absolutely zero problem managing any dockets, hearings, decisions etc. to the point I could and was asked to assist other aljs on their work and dockets. (More on that later). In recent years, the hearings are, by agency demand, rote (follow and do not vary from the script); instructions boil down to simply clicking bullet points through a pre-constructed Agency made template and clicking a mouse to send off to writing. Decisions…are agency tailor made; and the agency’s Artificial intelligence will review your decision and tell you what errors or edits need to be made before you can sign. I often described my alj role as sitting alone copying and moving data from one computer screen to another day in and day out and clicking a mouse to send out decisions. There is extremely little if any actual legal research or dissertation involved in the position.

As fars as “cons”; the singular one would be; as per the Agency, you are definitely not, by no means, in any way shape or form recognized as a true “judge” with real judicial authority. (Judge Judy has by far more actual judicial authority than an SSA ALJ). At the very most you are a very highly paid, glorified hearing officer in the Agency’s mindset. The position is so micro-micromanaged that (and I thought this was a welcome to the job joke on my first day) that you must sign in and out on a time clock each and every work day for your entire career, just like a minimum wage busboy at Denny’s. You have no authority over any staff, you are there only to put out dispositions so that the Agency/management can claim rewards, bonuses, etc for itself on your production rates. Fall behind on your production rates and you will bear the wrath of management. In that regard the bipolar nature of the agency must be recognized as ever present. As noted above, I did not find and had no problem at all meeting assigned quotas. In fact, early on in my life as an ALJ, I was at the very top levels in production, which I thought was a good thing. No, I received written notice from the top office that my excessive production was not beneficial to the agency and that I better not exceed quotas at my rate again or face disciplinary inquiry. Ok, lesson learned, do the minimum quota at increasing pay to stay in good stead with the agency. In similar regard, I used to assist and help other aljs who had fallen behind on their quotas until, once again I faced discipline by TPTB for doing same, I was expressly informed that alas could assist other aljs only after first being requested to do so by the Agency itself and then only after being expressly authorized to bo so and then again those cases being assisted must first by re-assigned by the Agency. Ok, lesson learned; do not lead friendly assistance to fellow aljs without agency pre-approval. Next, for a long time, I used to write all my own favorable decisions. Using provided software and AI, I (as any ALJ) could easily write, sign and dispose of a favorable decision in the minutes following a hearing. The rep is happy the claimant is happy and saving a ton of taxdollars and time. No, the agency informed me that doing so was not a proper use of alj time, so I was to no longer write and issue my own favorable decisions. Yes, I would be paid the same, even received another federal salary rate increase, while being expressly told to do less work.

As far as observations and not so much “cons”, IMHO the SSA agency as a whole is teetering on collapse due to an overwhelming lack of top-level management and direction. There is nobody in charge is the common expression universally voiced ; and that is factually true. Work is being performed that serves no observable purpose. Example: I was in a hearing the other week, I disagreeigned VHR ( local staffer) was furiously clicking away on her laptop between hearings. I asked what she was doing. She said she was reviewing all the medicals in each assigned claims file and entering a one line description of same on a computer sub-line inside another computer program for each fie. I asked “why”. She responded, well because you ALJs want that and read it. I replied: Uh no. In all my years, I and no other ALJ I know ever read that sub-line there or have any need to read that or any need to use it. Her response: WTH? Everyday I and others sit 8 hours a day, day after day, doing this and nobody uses or read it? I shrugged and said, no one I have ever heard of in all these years. This type needless, unnecessary make work is prevalent throughout the agency. Mindboggling wastes of time and monies.

Other observations; the agency wants numbers, cases scheduled, hearings held at any cost. In the past few years, this means that it is very common for me to hold entire dockets where no one ever shows because no one in the agency sent out a notice of hearing to the proper address of the claimant (and many times did not notify the rep). It has become very common for the agency to schedule hearings where there has been no attempt to contact the claimant (or rep) in months or year(s) prior to the hearing. It has become common to hold a hearing where there are no medical records or consultative exams in the record as the agency simply failed to bother to obtain same. Sounds bad? No there is always method in madness. Most if not all these hearings get postponed and sent back for workup, and as result, the OHO gets to again score another bonus point for another hearing scheduled….even though it is the same case. Double, triple dipping………ad nauseum …no harm no foul it’s all good for the agency.

There’s are many more observations I could make but that is sufficient for now. That said a few months ago when one morning while clocking in like a dishwasher for the umpteenth time, I grinned, began laughing and simply and easily said to myself that I don’t need or want to do this anymore and immediately submitted my email of resignation. It was an interesting ride, no regrets and I wake up grinning each day looking forward to the last day.

Grabbing cases from other ALJs and drafting FFs in minutes on your own....sounds like a little documentary I just watched. 
Anywho, all you're saying just backs up what I've always said and thought...outsiders who are used to being Mr. BMOC and have all the peons do their work and not answer to anyone will not likely be happy in this job.  Insiders (namely former DWs), though not exclusively, understand why some things are the way they are and appreciate the subtle complexities of this area of law. Insiders know how to play nice, shrugging their shoulders at some of the randomness that comes from being in a huge agency, but appreciate the attendant benefits.  I can't believe that even the number of outsiders get hired that do.

[recoveringalj]

“Insiders know how to play nice, shrugging their shoulders at some of the randomness that comes from being in a huge agency, but appreciate the attendant benefits. I can't believe that even the number of outsiders get hired that do.”

There have been a number of generalizations here, and I hope this doesn’t devolve into an insider v outsider debate. Knowing how to play nice isn’t an insider v outsider thing. Insiders certainly have a leg up when it comes to already knowing the program, but remember most of the current ALJs and chiefs were outsiders once upon a time and have learned the program as well. I think a lot of the previous statements are just pointing out the reality that the job is not for everyone.

[aa7]

Apr 27, 2023 15:26:17 GMT -5 recoveringalj said:

“Insiders know how to play nice, shrugging their shoulders at some of the randomness that comes from being in a huge agency, but appreciate the attendant benefits. I can't believe that even the number of outsiders get hired that do.”

There have been a number of generalizations here, and I hope this doesn’t devolve into an insider v outsider debate. Knowing how to play nice isn’t an insider v outsider thing. Insiders certainly have a leg up when it comes to already knowing the program, but remember most of the current ALJs and chiefs were outsiders once upon a time and have learned the program as well. I think a lot of the previous statements are just pointing out the reality that the job is not for everyone.

I agree with you....I really did not intend to suggest an in vs out point of view, which is why I said "Insiders..., though not exclusively, understand why some things are the way they are and appreciate the subtle complexities of this area of law."   My comments were more that there are some folks that this work suits and some types it does not...it's just that insiders already know that it does or does not suit them.

[remora]

I am a former aa and saa at SSA. I'm thinking of trying to go back to SSA. Does anyone know if I would have to serve another 2 year probationary period?