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Post by Pixie on Jun 22, 2016 8:32:21 GMT -5
Anyone have an educated guess on how OPM weighs the scores from the 3 components? For instance, does it seem like in the past, those with less than 10 years experience got cut after round 2, meaning that perhaps the experience assessment is more important than the other tests? Or were those with 20 years experience cut after round 2, meaning that perhaps experience is weighed less? Just wondering if there are any guesses out there??? nobody knows. There is no way of knowing. Guesses are not useful. Just take the darn test and do your best. We'll have much more to talk about when we know whether or not we're going to DC. Sorry if I seem a little impatient with the newbies, but you guys are obsessing about things to an unhealthy and astonishing degree. Agreed. But then we have come to realize that obsessing is the way of the newbie, especially this group of newbies. But don't let me dissuade you from posting. It is better to be hanging out in this thread than standing around on the street corner, smoking cigarettes and causing mischief. Pixie.
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Post by justlooking on Jun 22, 2016 9:03:34 GMT -5
Online testing complete! Now we wait again and cheer on those getting hired in the meantime
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Post by aa7 on Jun 22, 2016 10:03:53 GMT -5
Thanks! Seems an easy way to gather your thoughts off the clock before you start typing... This seems to me to be circumventing the intent of the question, which is to see how well you can compose an answer and write in 35 minutes. If you pull up the question, look at it, go out of the test to think about it, then come back in, I think that may not be ethical. What do others think about this? I agree.
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gino
Full Member
Posts: 36
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Post by gino on Jun 22, 2016 10:30:05 GMT -5
So I was all set up to take the test last night when a bolt of lightning came from the sky and knocked out our internet. It was brief but I took it as a sign that proceeding under those circumstances and risking intermittent internet outage was not worth it.
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Post by foghorn on Jun 22, 2016 10:44:09 GMT -5
Wow! A fairly definite answer! Thanks.
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Post by marten77 on Jun 22, 2016 10:45:01 GMT -5
nobody knows. There is no way of knowing. Guesses are not useful. Just take the darn test and do your best. We'll have much more to talk about when we know whether or not we're going to DC. Sorry if I seem a little impatient with the newbies, but you guys are obsessing about things to an unhealthy and astonishing degree. Agreed. But then we have come to realize that obsessing is the way of the newbie, especially this group of newbies. But don't let me dissuade you from posting. It is better to be hanging out in this thread than standing around on the street corner, smoking cigarettes and causing mischief. Pixie. It's 10 p.m. Do you know where your newbies are?
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Post by foghorn on Jun 22, 2016 10:46:37 GMT -5
So the street corner IS where they get some of the VE's from!
By the way, of the "newbie" applicant pool, how many would go to SSA, how many to other agencies?
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Post by foghorn on Jun 22, 2016 10:49:17 GMT -5
It is, then, a zen experience? We need to let go of everything (except our computers) and realize nothingness is everything.
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Post by gary on Jun 22, 2016 10:50:13 GMT -5
It is, then, a zen experience? We need to let go of everything (except our computers) and realize nothingness is everything. BE the SJT.
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Post by foghorn on Jun 22, 2016 10:55:41 GMT -5
Good thought. Basics count. And are easily forgotten in the bathos of facing a significant unkowable (bar exam seems a snap to prep for in comparison--at least you knew!)
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Post by 2rvrrun on Jun 22, 2016 12:02:08 GMT -5
I believe "old-head" is a railroad term. Perhaps that makes it slightly less objectionable than "geezer." It did at the railroad.
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Post by firehouse9 on Jun 22, 2016 14:22:25 GMT -5
Guys, the SJT isn't supposed to be hard. It's been suggested that it was put together by psychologists of some ilk or another and, in fact, is more a personality test than anything else. The questions are arranged so pretty much every answer is right to some degree. The object is to choose the one you, personally, would most likely do and/or would least likely do. So...sure you can game the system. You can try to read into the question or answers and guess what the "right" or "wanted" answer is. But that isn't the purpose. The purpose is for you to say what you would actually do. That should be easy. Now, you say, "but Funkster, I want them to rate me high and what I might actually do may not be what they want me to say I will do." "Well," Dr. Funkinheimer says in response, "they are looking for people that will make good judges. So, say you lie and get through and land the job. Are you intending to continue to go against your natural instincts and personality for the rest of you career?" "No!" says You, "Once I am a judge I will do what I really want and no one can stop me!" "Nice evil laugh" says Funkenstein "Why thank you" says You. "You know that wont work," says Funklicious "Who are you kidding?" asks You, "I've heard of the judge that crapped himself in the hall, kicked it under the copier and kept walking. If he can William Shatner the copier and not get fired, I can do whatever I want!" "Touche," meekly responds Sir Funkalot, "Proceed as you wish." It seems to me that, if it's a personality test, it's impossible to "lie." It also may not tell you that much about what someone would do as a judge because, in real life, you would have or could ask for more information. As for whether the test is a successful in picking out good judges--who knows? I think that there is a tendency of any group of people who have succeeded in passing through a set of tests to assume that those tests were successful at discerning quality. "After all, I did well on the tests, so the tests must be good at that." Law school professors are particularly susceptible to this tendency. That said, the best advice I have seen is to read the instructions, watch your time, and think about the qualities that the testers are trying to discern.
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Post by funkyodar on Jun 22, 2016 14:59:36 GMT -5
Guys, the SJT isn't supposed to be hard. It's been suggested that it was put together by psychologists of some ilk or another and, in fact, is more a personality test than anything else. The questions are arranged so pretty much every answer is right to some degree. The object is to choose the one you, personally, would most likely do and/or would least likely do. So...sure you can game the system. You can try to read into the question or answers and guess what the "right" or "wanted" answer is. But that isn't the purpose. The purpose is for you to say what you would actually do. That should be easy. Now, you say, "but Funkster, I want them to rate me high and what I might actually do may not be what they want me to say I will do." "Well," Dr. Funkinheimer says in response, "they are looking for people that will make good judges. So, say you lie and get through and land the job. Are you intending to continue to go against your natural instincts and personality for the rest of you career?" "No!" says You, "Once I am a judge I will do what I really want and no one can stop me!" "Nice evil laugh" says Funkenstein "Why thank you" says You. "You know that wont work," says Funklicious "Who are you kidding?" asks You, "I've heard of the judge that crapped himself in the hall, kicked it under the copier and kept walking. If he can William Shatner the copier and not get fired, I can do whatever I want!" "Touche," meekly responds Sir Funkalot, "Proceed as you wish." It seems to me that, if it's a personality test, it's impossible to "lie." It also may not tell you that much about what someone would do as a judge because, in real life, you would have or could ask for more information. As for whether the test is a successful in picking out good judges--who knows? I think that there is a tendency of any group of people who have succeeded in passing through a set of tests to assume that those tests were successful at discerning quality. "After all, I did well on the tests, so the tests must be good at that." Law school professors are particularly susceptible to this tendency. That said, the best advice I have seen is to read the instructions, watch your time, and think about the qualities that the testers are trying to discern. if you think I take the position that OPM's testing is a good mechanism for finding good judges for ODAR, I have either done a very poor job explaining my position or you have not been following my posts.
I've routinely argued the tests don't really seek what's important for odar judges and that it's unfairly biased in favor of litigation experience when, IMHO, such experience, while nice and somewhat useful, is far down the list of attributes that makes one successful as an odar judge.
As to it being impossible to lie on a personality test, I and the editors of every Cosmo and Redbook and Maxim I have ever read (admittedly not many) would likely disagree. According to those tests, and my self scoring, I should be just about the best thing since Jack Kennedy in the desireability factor. Yet, my wife and others will tell you I am really on the Jack Benny side of that scale.
You can of course try and figure out what the testers want. That's certainly a common and acceptable strategy. But, I still think the purpose of the test is to see what you, personally, would do in the given situations. And, I believe in the long run that's what you should put. After all, you are applying for this job because you think you would be a good judge. Your mommy, life coach, law partner, some ALJ you know...someone told you you would be a good judge. So, why not trust your own instincts and answer the questions truthfully, rather than try and outthink the test makers and answer in a fashion you believe they want, yet conflicts with what you would really do?
But hey, do what you want. This is your donkey to ride now. As you note, I rode it my way straight to the highest scoring subgroup, a very first cert NOR, obviously at least a recommend on the interview and hired by the agency. Doesn't mean the testing found a good judge. Doesn't mean I am one. But in the game that is the application, I feel confident in saying I beat it. About as good as anyone has. Doesn't mean mine is the only way. But cant say it didn't work.
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Post by operationalj on Jun 22, 2016 15:21:30 GMT -5
Folks - I'm going in! Dog has been walked, prayers said and fairy dust sprinkled, good deeds done for good karma, and strong Internet connection. Time to get this done! Good luck to all!
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Post by gary on Jun 22, 2016 15:34:20 GMT -5
Folks - I'm going in! Dog has been walked, prayers said and fairy dust sprinkled, good deeds done for good karma, and strong Internet connection. Time to get this done! Good luck to all! The use of fairy dust and recognition of the need for good karma suggest to me that this is a person who understands how the world actually works.
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Post by firehouse9 on Jun 22, 2016 16:13:57 GMT -5
It seems to me that, if it's a personality test, it's impossible to "lie." It also may not tell you that much about what someone would do as a judge because, in real life, you would have or could ask for more information. As for whether the test is a successful in picking out good judges--who knows? I think that there is a tendency of any group of people who have succeeded in passing through a set of tests to assume that those tests were successful at discerning quality. "After all, I did well on the tests, so the tests must be good at that." Law school professors are particularly susceptible to this tendency. That said, the best advice I have seen is to read the instructions, watch your time, and think about the qualities that the testers are trying to discern. if you think I take the position that OPM's testing is a good mechanism for finding good judges for ODAR, I have either done a very poor job explaining my position or you have not been following my posts.
I've routinely argued the tests don't really seek what's important for odar judges and that it's unfairly biased in favor of litigation experience when, IMHO, such experience, while nice and somewhat useful, is far down the list of attributes that makes one successful as an odar judge.
As to it being impossible to lie on a personality test, I and the editors of every Cosmo and Redbook and Maxim I have ever read (admittedly not many) would likely disagree. According to those tests, and my self scoring, I should be just about the best thing since Jack Kennedy in the desireability factor. Yet, my wife and others will tell you I am really on the Jack Benny side of that scale.
You can of course try and figure out what the testers want. That's certainly a common and acceptable strategy. But, I still think the purpose of the test is to see what you, personally, would do in the given situations. And, I believe in the long run that's what you should put. After all, you are applying for this job because you think you would be a good judge. Your mommy, life coach, law partner, some ALJ you know...someone told you you would be a good judge. So, why not trust your own instincts and answer the questions truthfully, rather than try and outthink the test makers and answer in a fashion you believe they want, yet conflicts with what you would really do?
But hey, do what you want. This is your donkey to ride now. As you note, I rode it my way straight to the highest scoring subgroup, a very first cert NOR, obviously at least a recommend on the interview and hired by the agency. Doesn't mean the testing found a good judge. Doesn't mean I am one. But in the game that is the application, I feel confident in saying I beat it. About as good as anyone has. Doesn't mean mine is the only way. But cant say it didn't work.
Well! Actually, nothing personal. You write a lot of great posts and I appreciate your contributions. I haven't really followed threads about the overall efficacy of the process.
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Post by privateatty on Jun 22, 2016 16:39:22 GMT -5
We never had the SJT at my time (2007-2008), but I am still amazed at the notion that this SJT would have any substantive bearing on what it means to be a federal ALJ.
For example, I take all the classes and get my PhD in psychology. I do the course work, work at the VA clinic. I finally get my license and have real, live clients/patients. Then I mis-judge one, badly and they end up dead by their own hand.
Am I then at least partially qualified to be a vocational psychologist for OPM devising SJTs for wanna be ALJs?
Because I can think of three Agencies where their ALJs end up making decisions that have grave import upon the lives of those they judge: ODAR, OMHA and Labor. And while so many who look upon the job from their own superior perch think they know what the job entails, those that have done it for awhile in those Agencies know (if they care to engage in a little introspection) so much more than perhaps they want to.
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Post by funkyodar on Jun 22, 2016 18:09:25 GMT -5
FH9, I didn't take anything you wrote personally. Merely debating your position on whether one can, or even more importantly should, "lie" or attempt to devise the desired repsonses. As opposed to simply doing what the instructions say and choosing a response that represents what they would actually do. The try and figure what they want approach is definitely a route to take. Many undoubtedly have and been successful. But, as for first hand evidence, I have only my own experience. I answered with my natural instinct. It worked for me. Thus, I suggest others do the same. But each should go the route they think is best for them. Now, I do wholeheartedly believe this system opm has devised is not the best or even a good way to choose alj, at least odar aljs. Too many that would make great ssa judges get cut. Thankfully, I think odar does a good job of finding good aljs for them from within opm's final product. So, in the end I guess it works. The only victim is the excellent candidate exceptionally qualified for ssa work that gets canned because they don't meet opm's poorly applied litigation mark. As for my contributions to the board...well, for what they are I am glad you found some aid, humor or insight. I joined this board, like you, as a candidate in a system that seemed designed to emotionally and intellectually torture people. I used it to gain what little hard info there was, to benefit from others insight and to find some solace among similarly tortured souls. This really is the only source of any info and about the only place where people really know what you are going thru congregate. I've made real friends with many members. A lot of them have gone on to be aljs in my agency or another. They are now fellow judges and I will continue Friendship with them for my entire career and after. Many have inexplicably, in my mind, been left in the torture chamber. Many that ultimately attain an alj position and were members of this community leave soon after being sworn in. The board doesn't really have much of a use after you get the job. I haven't left. I haven't for three main reasons. First, those real friends of mine that still wait here. I want to see them succeed. I want to help them if any of my limited insight or insider info can accomplish that. I celebrate with them when they finally get the call, like my good friend Gaidin. I curse with them when they don't and hold out hope new certs happen quickly. Another reason is what I found when I joined here. There was a handful of great sitting aljs that stayed active on the board and offered guidance, Intel and just emotional support to we newbie candidates. Of course the great and powerful Pixie and the wonderful @aljd. But also forum legends like @bartelby and decadeALJ, privateattorney (who helped me thru some of the worst of the maze). Too many others to name. I stayed because I felt a desire to give back to the board as they did. I have no doubt I would not be an alj without this board and this board would not exist but for those folks and others that kept it going for almost 9 years now. Finally, I stayed active because this community is really the only place where great debate and discussion about big things like what it really means to be a judge, why due process is important in administrative hearings and the like occur. It helps keep the mind sharp and others perspectives in that sharpened mind. I need that. But...and please don't take this personally firehouse9, I am only using your post as a springboard to this topic because you mentioned my "contributions". I have been thinking about this for a while. I think I am pretty much done. With a handful of exceptions, 71stretch, christina, @sealaw, gary, Ace Midnight, @berk77 and probably a dozen more who I don't know their official username and can't tag, all my original compadres are now judges. Those that aren't yet I think will be in September. And this newbie class....many of you are great. But, some of you are down right exasperating. Some, not all, seem to expect that because it's you the system will now work without a hitch and you are entitled to immediate gratification. Some, not all, ask for advice from those that went before, but if what you get back is not to your liking you chastise the geezers. A few bad apples are really tainting this barrel and have largely zapped any desire I have to offer Intel, advice or assistance. I really like many of you new applicants. But, helping you is such a chore when the real jackholes show up. And, to be honest, I don't know that I have the energy or emotional fortitude to get invested in another group. A group that still has to go thru the cuts, the tons of threads of appalled appellants, the incessant waiting. There's probably around 2500 of you guys doing the online testing this week and next. Maybe more. And over the next year to 2 years maybe 250 of you will ultimately be judges. I just don't think I have the ability to suffer thru a 90% casualty rate with another group. So, without further long-winded adieu, let me get to the point. I will no longer post anything in any thread concerning folks not yet on the register. I won't advise, comment, break tension or pass along any Intel I get. And, after the next hiring round for September, I am finally signing off the board. It's been an amazing trip, a truly great community and I will miss it. Hell, for the last three years it's been my home page on my phone, tablet and computer. It will be strange. But, it's time. Good luck to everyone. I hope you each get the honor of being sworn in to a federal administrative law judge position. It's a humbling experience and the best job in the world. Funkyodar
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Post by privateatty on Jun 22, 2016 20:04:26 GMT -5
FH9, I didn't take anything you wrote personally. Merely debating your position on whether one can, or even more importantly should, "lie" or attempt to devise the desired repsonses. As opposed to simply doing what the instructions say and choosing a response that represents what they would actually do. The try and figure what they want approach is definitely a route to take. Many undoubtedly have and been successful. But, as for first hand evidence, I have only my own experience. I answered with my natural instinct. It worked for me. Thus, I suggest others do the same. But each should go the route they think is best for them. Now, I do wholeheartedly believe this system opm has devised is not the best or even a good way to choose alj, at least odar aljs. Too many that would make great ssa judges get cut. Thankfully, I think odar does a good job of finding good aljs for them from within opm's final product. So, in the end I guess it works. The only victim is the excellent candidate exceptionally qualified for ssa work that gets canned because they don't meet opm's poorly applied litigation mark. As for my contributions to the board...well, for what they are I am glad you found some aid, humor or insight. I joined this board, like you, as a candidate in a system that seemed designed to emotionally and intellectually torture people. I used it to gain what little hard info there was, to benefit from others insight and to find some solace among similarly tortured souls. This really is the only source of any info and about the only place where people really know what you are going thru congregate. I've made real friends with many members. A lot of them have gone on to be aljs in my agency or another. They are now fellow judges and I will continue Friendship with them for my entire career and after. Many have inexplicably, in my mind, been left in the torture chamber. Many that ultimately attain an alj position and were members of this community leave soon after being sworn in. The board doesn't really have much of a use after you get the job. I haven't left. I haven't for three main reasons. First, those real friends of mine that still wait here. I want to see them succeed. I want to help them if any of my limited insight or insider info can accomplish that. I celebrate with them when they finally get the call, like my good friend Gaidin. I curse with them when they don't and hold out hope new certs happen quickly. Another reason is what I found when I joined here. There was a handful of great sitting aljs that stayed active on the board and offered guidance, Intel and just emotional support to we newbie candidates. Of course the great and powerful Pixie and the wonderful @aljd. But also forum legends like @bartelby and decadeALJ, privateattorney (who helped me thru some of the worst of the maze). Too many others to name. I stayed because I felt a desire to give back to the board as they did. I have no doubt I would not be an alj without this board and this board would not exist but for those folks and others that kept it going for almost 9 years now. Finally, I stayed active because this community is really the only place where great debate and discussion about big things like what it really means to be a judge, why due process is important in administrative hearings and the like occur. It helps keep the mind sharp and others perspectives in that sharpened mind. I need that. But...and please don't take this personally firehouse9, I am only using your post as a springboard to this topic because you mentioned my "contributions". I have been thinking about this for a while. I think I am pretty much done. With a handful of exceptions, 71stretch, christina, @sealaw, gary, Ace Midnight, @berk77 and probably a dozen more who I don't know their official username and can't tag, all my original compadres are now judges. Those that aren't yet I think will be in September. And this newbie class....many of you are great. But, some of you are down right exasperating. Some, not all, seem to expect that because it's you the system will now work without a hitch and you are entitled to immediate gratification. Some, not all, ask for advice from those that went before, but if what you get back is not to your liking you chastise the geezers. A few bad apples are really tainting this barrel and have largely zapped any desire I have to offer Intel, advice or assistance. I really like many of you new applicants. But, helping you is such a chore when the real jackholes show up. And, to be honest, I don't know that I have the energy or emotional fortitude to get invested in another group. A group that still has to go thru the cuts, the tons of threads of appalled appellants, the incessant waiting. There's probably around 2500 of you guys doing the online testing this week and next. Maybe more. And over the next year to 2 years maybe 250 of you will ultimately be judges. I just don't think I have the ability to suffer thru a 90% casualty rate with another group. So, without further long-winded adieu, let me get to the point. I will no longer post anything in any thread concerning folks not yet on the register. I won't advise, comment, break tension or pass along any Intel I get. And, after the next hiring round for September, I am finally signing off the board. It's been an amazing trip, a truly great community and I will miss it. Hell, for the last three years it's been my home page on my phone, tablet and computer. It will be strange. But, it's time. Good luck to everyone. I hope you each get the honor of being sworn in to a federal administrative law judge position. It's a humbling experience and the best job in the world. Funkyodar Thank you funky. I have often wondered why I am on this Board when the only one who consistently has stayed with me all these years (other than Pixie and ALD of course) has been bartleby--and he has taken a load of crap for just being him. I mean, I don't for the life of me know how our two hall monitors do it. Its bad enough that folks lurk like leeches, then pop up like spring daisies to announce they got the job. The ones who don't want to be bothered to do any research at all are also noteworthy. But I echo funky, its the folks who think we should had them the keys to the City (as if we could) who are truly amazing. It takes real fortitude and when you have to employ same in a courtroom day after day--it can be way too much. And I think (although I don't know) what really gets under funky's collar is that lawyers do tend to act like they know what they are talking about--it is an occupational hazard--but we all know how much of that knowledge we can take to the Bank. Has anyone ever looked at our list of Members? It looks like Arlington National Cemetery. Whole lotta names, very few are familiar. I suppose this, in and of itself, should not be surprising, but IMHO it is noteworthy. I can think of three friends I have made here. One in particular gave me advice that allowed me to become an ALJ. He/she left these pages more than a few years ago. I know I have paid that debt. But of course there are folks like funky and the maybe twos handful like him. We all know who they are. We all agree that they should all be Judges and yet only one handful is. Again, not surprising given the vagaries of this process, but saddening nonetheless. Without funky this Board will not be the same, that is for sure. Let me be the first to say that God knows I will miss him. For not only has he been a totally unselfish fountain of information and advice, but his wisdom delivered with this quirky off-handedness (for want of a better description) had been a big reason I fire up these pages. He makes me think and reflect what it means to be an ALJ. Yeah, a lot of it has to do with the Alice in Wonderland life y'all live in ODAR-Land, but nonetheless there is too much universality in there to pass such posts by. A little like Maureen Dowd, a little like David Brooks and a whole lotta funky.
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Post by Abe_Froman on Jun 22, 2016 20:45:35 GMT -5
Thanks for all the posts, Mr. FunkyOdar. You've brought an excellent perspective, and you're a great writer. Keep writing beyond those weekly hearing instructions.
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